Tattoo Nerf Request (in General)

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] January 27 2005 1:40 AM EST

/me is sick of random newbs complaining about tats being overpowered and even a few vets who know what they're talking about who're saying that tats make the game unfair.

At a high PR tats are not the key to strategy because we're using ones that work at our PR, at low PRs however anyone can equip a tat of any size and win, when you have people renting execs and katanas it seems unfair when you're trying to beat them but yeah, those are just taking advantage of the situation they're in and using rentals, but then we have big tats which can't be beaten. Point me in the direction of one 30k PR character without a tat who can beat a 100k ToJ and I'll shut up about this.

I'm just looking at the tattoo's equipped to higher PR characters and seeing that really, who has a tat higher than their PR? Very, very few high PRs do have one that big. Newbs however have the ability to equip these huge tats and farm others way higher than their PR but when you have the majority of newbs either renting or borrowing big tats, it becomes impossible for other newbs to win at PR without a tat.
So how about not being able to equip at tat which has a level above your PR?
How about we humour this suggestion by trying this idea for a week, if it really is that lame a suggestion then go back to the way it is now.
Or at least explain why exactly this hasn't been in effect since the first day of CB2.

Zacharia Andrew Pa!n January 27 2005 1:49 AM EST

140 pr guy shouldn't be able to beat a 30k pr guy no matter how uber the weapon is very unbalanced in my opinion....

[LB]Iceman January 27 2005 1:57 AM EST

I agree with MrC for the most part. I just thought I'd add my suggestion from chat for the general consumption.

I personally think not letting tattoos be equipped is a bit harsh. I also think having to have your tattoo only be lesser than or equal to your PR is harsh. Yes, a 50k tattoo on a 1k PR character is overpowering. But a 5k tattoo, not so much.

My suggestion was to implement an 'effective level' for tattoos greater than a certain function of the PR. Basically, any tattoo can be equipped by any PR char (like now), but if it is above a certain level relative to Power, it takes a penalty, much the way certain spells and skill work now. Archery gives no additional bonus when it is over x0.25 the characters strength, for instance.

So, lets use, purely for example x3 as the threshold. A 10.2k PR character equips a level 30k tattoo. They see on their minion "A Tattoo of Jigorokano lvl 30,670" The same tattoo gets equipped by a 1200 PR character. They see on their minion "A Tattoo of Jig. lvl 3,600 (30,670)" For them, it only operates as a lvl3.6k tat.

The function of the PR would take some tweaking. I'd say anywhere between 2x-10x could end up being the magic number--we can't base it solely on the game at present, things will change as CB2 matures.

My 2 cents, anyway.

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] January 27 2005 2:03 AM EST

/me likes Iceman's suggestion too (although I don't think any character should need a tattoo with a level above their PR in the first place, a link between your PR and tat level would work well).

I don't care if Jon's response to this thread is that "This is a dumb suggestion because"... so long as we get a "because" in there.

Cranium Basher January 27 2005 3:06 AM EST

Not true, I kill Steve_gs entire team, save for his familiar, first fight.

His familiar kills my entire team, :(

Lumpy Koala January 27 2005 3:06 AM EST

"I don't think any character should need a tattoo with a level above their PR"

oh boy, all tattoo starts with lvl 20 and char starts at 1 PR. So there will ALWAYS be imbalance !!

Lumpy Koala January 27 2005 3:07 AM EST

well.. ok, I was kidding. I would side Iceman's idea :P

Zacharia Andrew Pa!n January 27 2005 3:57 AM EST

Icemans idea is a great one though you could do something like + 10-25% of their pr. added to the base of their pr. above a certain amount if it would be easier that way.

Fishead January 27 2005 4:19 AM EST

I think a tattoo should be a tattoo, not some crackerjack toy. By this I mean it's a commitment, and at some level it should be permanent, and if unequipped, you loose levels on the tattoo.

Say, for example, at 20k the tattoo becomes permanent. This gives one time to evaluate the tattoo in their strat and make a decision. If you unequip it later, it returns to 20k. No tattoo would ever be more than 20k over the character's level.

QBJohnnywas January 27 2005 4:56 AM EST

Equipping a huge tattoo on a low pr character will cause that character to rise in score but unequip and they will soon sink back to the level they started at. If somebody has bought a large tatt, not rented it then let them stay high if it gets them there. Otherwise see it for what it is - a temporary increase in power that won't last very long at all.

AdminG Beee January 27 2005 5:13 AM EST

Reducing the desire to xfr tats between users effects more than just battle strategies.

Just another thought to ponder.

I don't know how much cash is taken out of the game on a daily basis due to Tat xfrs between users but I would imagine it helps with regards to keeping the economy in hand... Remember the runaway costs from CB1 as more and more people had more and more money. Anything that takes cash out of the game usually puts a smile on Jons face.

QBJohnnywas January 27 2005 6:17 AM EST

I do agree with this though. Equipping a huge ELB on a low pr char can help them. But with low pr HP/ST/DX that ELB can't do half the damage it can carry out when equipped on a million pr char. A huge tattoo though is a huge tattoo no matter what char it is equipped on.

However if I own my tattoo and I've fought hard, bought lots of ba and raised it up until it's big and strong shouldn't I be able to use it how I see fit? If I decide to start a character over I want to use that item that I've sweated over. I wouldn't expect to be stopped from using an exec say that I had forged up and I wouldn't be happy if I couldn't use my tattoo.

Maybe a cap on what level it plays at if you are lending it or renting it but please not on our own characters!

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] January 27 2005 6:22 AM EST

Johnnywas, that's why I like Iceman's suggestion.

An elbow is still powerful on a small character but considerably weaker than on a high PR character.

Tattoos however are the complete opposite, on a high PR they're often no more than a meatshield, on a small character, they'll win fights for you.

Why not give it some penalty for having a low PR?

QBJohnnywas January 27 2005 6:47 AM EST

It's not that I disagree - it's more where do you draw the line with this one. Like I said, if I've worked hard at training that familiar I want to be able to use him. If I smithed/forged a sword up I'd want to use that. And what would it do to resale value? If you wanted to sell your 100,000 level tattoo the only people who would buy it were people who could use it, who probably have their own high level tattoos. You would effectively make it unsellable. In which case you should go the whole hog and make it like a RL tattoo. If you equip it you live with it. Nobody else gets to use it. Forever!

RIPsalt3d January 27 2005 7:37 AM EST

The problem I have with these suggested fixes is that they assume that something is broken. This requires far too many assumptions for my liking, and they're all based on the mechanics of CB1.

Does anyone remember why we're playing CB2 now? Correct me if I'm wrong, but CB1 was deemed past it's use-by date because, among other reasons, a new player had no hope of reaching the top. Obviously the changes required to make it so were too severe for the existing game, so a new version was spawned.

So keeping in mind that one of the primary design goals is to make the game engaging for new and old players alike, can anyone offer a convincing argument that new players should be restricted in their use of powerful items?

As for the notion that a low PR player equipping a high NW tattoo proves they are 'overpowered', I feel it stems from people's tendency to view PR as the defining statistic of a character's capabilities. The accepted wisdom is that if a character has a significantly lower PR than your own, victory is assured; and anything that contradicts that is overpowered or imbalanced. The easiest way to overcome this is to judge a character based on score, not PR.

I know people will argue that it's Just Not Right for Joe Newbie to come along, rent or borrow a tattoo and start beating characters many thousands of times his PR, but does this really make a difference to the player he's beating? The only meaningful outcome is that Joe is more likely to stick around and keep playing.

Don't forget that he has to make a choice to adopt this strategy. How much time should he invest in someone else's tattoo? Relying on the tattoo rental/loans market continuing ad infinitum is risky, and he has to sacrifice the opportunity of building up his own tattoo.

If some low PR character using a big tattoo against you is that distressing, there's nothing to stop you renting one of your own and teaching him a lesson. What could be fairer?

Phaete January 27 2005 8:39 AM EST

I fully agree with salt3d.

Another point

The mechanics of CB2 as well as CB1 is that the rewards are greater when beating someone who is 'higher valued'.

Proportionally big tattoos are just one way to do that, good strategy is another (though not as effective), or just other equipment *cough*CBF*cough* giving an edge.

And all of them are investments again, also in the same proportions as i can see, so nothing wrong with the 'toos

Phaete January 27 2005 8:44 AM EST

In different wording :)

Tattoos are the rentable/benchable/sellable minions.
Because i took the effort to buy one, and let it train with a team from scratch to 80k PR, that Too is now kicking 30k score teams with a 5k PR mage, and gaining nice income.
Investment is returning.

Hapster January 27 2005 8:54 AM EST

I hate to say it, but I think the endurance change helped jigs a little too much. My Jig in damage done will often do something between 20-30k damage in the returned damage, from amf. His hp is under 10k. While I wish it was, my amf is not quite that effective. I think the balance is almost perfect, but the endurance for jigs is slightly high.

Steve G January 27 2005 9:38 AM EST

keep in mind im still like 14k PR above my tattoos level. and i havnt loaned it out for about 40-45k levels now due to the fact that xfer costs are rediculous for the return NW added

Wolvie January 27 2005 4:05 PM EST

I took my 22K ToJ off my main character, and gave it to one of my burros, 46 PR (not 46K, just 46).

I then fought some characters way above my PR. I turns out I could beat them, but the value to me was negligible.

Percival defeated RayBee after 7 rounds of combat (11K PR)
You are awarded $14 and your Minions receive 13 exp each.

Percival defeated Earl Of Happy after 7 rounds of combat (15K PR)
You are awarded $31 and your Minions receive 12 exp each.

Percival defeated NIN after 14 rounds of combat (20K PR)
You are awarded $21 and your Minions receive 9 exp each.

I'm not exactly raking in bucks or XP with that. Compare that to fighting within a more "normal" PR range.

Percival defeated Arma after 6 rounds of combat (300 PR)
You are awarded $24 and your Minions receive 10 exp each.

Percival defeated Batosai after 5 rounds of combat (200 PR)
You are awarded $14 and your Minions receive 10 exp each.

No significant difference in rewards. It didn't matter whether I fought someone 4-6 times my PR or someone 200-400 times my PR.

I'm not sure why I'd bother wasting my higher level tattoo on a low level character if it isn't going to help that low level character advance more quickly. I could just as easily rent a small bow or melee weapon to get that same advantage (the ability to beat someone 4-6 times my PR).

AdminJonathan January 27 2005 4:11 PM EST

There have always been limits on how fast brand-new chars gain xp to prevent abuse.

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] January 27 2005 6:43 PM EST

This is a legitimate way for new players to be able to 'catch up' to older ones. I bet this is totally intentional and not perceived as a problem that needs fixing. Look, if you don't want new players renting out high level tattoos, then take the tattoos off the rental market and don't loan them out. It's out of greed for wanting your tattoo leveled up that allows new players the use of those high level tattoos. Stop crying about a problem that doesn't exist.

Zacharia Andrew Pa!n January 27 2005 6:45 PM EST

Well in response to that if I could find a way to take them off the market so some 140 pr guy couldn't woop my 30k pr guy then believe me I would.....

Wolvie January 27 2005 7:30 PM EST

My point, that Jonathan confirmed, was that taking them off the market is unnecessary. There isn't a problem, so there isn't a need to fix it.

A low PR character cannot benefit from beating a much higher PR character. There is no need to change the way the tattoos work to accomplish that.
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