Are CoBF a bit much? (in General)

Chocolate Thunder February 7 2005 11:30 AM EST

David Sylvian's Fireball hit Sister of Mercy for no damage

My Fireball: Fireball: 80,664/82,311 (12,809) (easily does 40K damage to single minions.) (Can be unlearned for 821,356XP)

The CoBF in question: A Cloak of Balrog Flame [0] (+10) owned by astrokid (The Nunnery)

The minion also has 119 AC.

My question here is: Is 1 million in NW worth 820K experience pumped into a DD spell? I do understand its partially my fault for having only a fireball to produce damage, but nailing a guy for zero over and over again for 5 rounds is silly. Especially when the other 4 members of his party are dead by the 4th or 5th round.

No i have no suggestion for improving the CoBF, especially as i fully intend on purchasing one. I was just in the mood to rant.

QBsutekh137 February 7 2005 11:35 AM EST

I couldn't agree with you more. Nothing worse than net worth _completely_ trumping experience.

But perhaps as the game grows we will find that DD growth will outpace the CoBF's damage reduction. As with a lot of other aspects of CB2, we need to wait and see how things pan out...

QBsutekh137 February 7 2005 11:41 AM EST

By the way, didn't the changelog say that the CoBF damage reduction is capped at 4K per + point? That means you are right on the cusp of being able to overcome +10 with a 40K FB. That would be if AC were not in the picture...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 7 2005 11:43 AM EST

Not until the melee rounds Favorite won't. The damage reduction in ranged will allow the CBF to stop a lot more damage.

Frost February 7 2005 12:01 PM EST

this also annoys me too when i fought BooDiggins B-Funk char when he was at 15k score with my 80k single Fireball mage i kept dieing and now hes gone up the ranks at a alarming rate far surpassing me now with score and PR strange how one item makes you far surperior than everyone other words while he spent time camping store i was fighting then he gets a CoBF and all that time ive been gaining exp becomes nothing to this ultimate item, he beats me

Shadowcat February 7 2005 12:41 PM EST

I've never understood all the fuss over these, the way I look at it is using a Cobf is akin to employing a given strategy. You will totally own person A and B, beat up on C and D most of the time, and get totally owned by E and F. No one strategy, however overpowered it may seem at a given moment, will consistently beat everyone in the long term.

I will grant the frustration of seeing someone able to throw down a bunch of money and have the equivalent to a long term development of a team/strategy, but it's not as if these are falling off trees. And even if the day comes where most of the top people have one, there will be a strategy to counter them. It's not a fault with the game design if people refuse to adapt their strategies to be able to beat a certain % of the playerbase.

Arorrr February 7 2005 12:53 PM EST

Shadowcat, may be you are ignorance that CoBF did very well in CB1 against melee already. CB2 adds FB immunity on top of it.

If it was me, I would have make CoBF triump over melee but make the FB immunity add to a different item, instead on top of CoBF. Also, the upgrade cost is significantly reduced (fixed, linear) for CB2, versus some type of exponential cost in CB1.

CoBF = good against 60% of DD magic and 100% of melee. No other single item has this much benefit, may be except ToE & ToJ(Toe).

[CB1]moniker February 7 2005 1:32 PM EST

I know of no other piece of armor in the game that can so completely block a given type of damage. Every other type of offensive / defensive interaction is along a sliding scale that allows multiple strategies to be viable. With the CoBF, FB is completely shut down.

I'll join the march. Nerf it.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 7 2005 1:44 PM EST

I can think of a couple of strategies that ignore CBF s. Archers and any other DD spell...

Personally, I think CBF s reduction is needed. Otherwise FB+DM becomes top dog.

If CBF s are giving you hastle and you don't think you can keep your FB above their level, change your strategy to work around them.

I did.


QBJohnnywas February 7 2005 1:46 PM EST

Good way to get round an opposing item GL - get one of your own!!!!!!!! =)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 7 2005 1:52 PM EST

Damn right. ;) It is too good an item not to use. So I got one, and figured out a way to fit it into my strat,, while giving me an option of how to get around them. And seekers. ;)

Otherwise I would have stayed with a ToE and a single minion! ;)

Another point, multiple minions help a lot when using a CBF on your team. FB's damage is spread over all your minions, meaning you can get away with a lower CBF than usual.

At least until your other minions die! ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 7 2005 1:59 PM EST

For the long term, a 1Mil FB (about 500K average damage) would be totally negated by a level 125 CBF. Which would cost only 12.5 Mil! ;)

Shark February 7 2005 2:12 PM EST

you guys better get used to networth trumping experience..are you new here or something?

QBsutekh137 February 7 2005 2:24 PM EST

Oh yeah, forgot about upgrades being a flat rate. Goodness, a mere 12.5 million negating an entire means of offense? Well, remember, the CoBF does require other sacrifices...

Arorrr February 7 2005 2:37 PM EST

For the long term, a 1Mil FB (about 500K average damage) would be totally negated by a level 125 CBF. Which would cost only 12.5 Mil! ;)

Add this also:
+1M exp UC skill will get beat by a level 125 CBF, damage-wise.
+BL Tank, don't even come near a level 125 CBF wearer.

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] February 7 2005 3:33 PM EST

Can't say I agree, of course I'd be glad to see my FB damaging some of these guys but the money they're putting into these things will seriously lower their other NW, which makes blocking the bigger FBs less cost effective, if they're putting that much into one item, they deserve to be blocking a lot.

There are other ways to beat them, GA and AMF both work well enough, I suppose for a ToJ mage GA may not be the best idea but AMF is still a good option. Besides, you guys can make fightlists, it's not ideal to be farmed by people with CoBFs but it's not like your fightlist will be much smaller.

The way I see it, if you've got multiple minions, you can very easily afford to use other ways of attacking, if you're one minion, well appart from the fact that this strat would need some nerfing if CoBFs weren't as powerful against it, you can use MM, it's not the best spell but if CoBFs are really that overpowered, just get MM and forget about them.

InebriatedArsonist February 7 2005 3:37 PM EST

Oh, come on, we're back to this again? I see no reason to be scared of twenty items total. If you don't like dealing with high NW items, and can't accept that any given strategy will have weaknesses, don't play the game.

QBsutekh137 February 7 2005 4:03 PM EST

IA, that argument only goes so far for a player gunning for the Top Twenty. In a couple months there will be over 50 CoBFs, and most will be on top players. So, anyone wanting to consistently beat folks will HAVE to give up on FB (at least the single minion FB folks will), no matter how much they invest in it. I think that is the main beef here.

Hm, I may have addressed my own problem, though.... I would love to see single-mage FB teams be forced to change or add more minions.

Let's just forget I hopped on this bandwagon, OK? *smile*

[CB1]moniker February 7 2005 4:35 PM EST

I have no problem with CBF reducing FB damage, I have an issue with how weighted the scale of reduction is. It should take a serious investment of NW to block an entire offensive attack from your opponent.

I'm not whining because it makes my strategy hard, I'm fine with that. I'm whining because it makes any FB based strategy impossible. Characters with 1/2 my PR get a CBF and they can beat me. If I add 3 minions and pump them up with EO and ED, it makes no difference, because my main offensive choice is obliterated. Is the intent really to have an offensive choice that becomes useless in the face of a single defensive choice?

Can anyone think of any other defensive choice that completely obliterates an offensive choice without a massive investment of NW? Even an Adam with 100m NW pumped into the + still allows some damage.

Majestik Moose February 7 2005 4:44 PM EST

well.. problem as I see it now, is that fireball mages would rule without CoBFs being around.
With a CoBF nerf, a Fireball nerf almost certain most follow, and then Fireball mages will be a poorer killer strat then it is atm.

End conclusion: Nerf of CoBFs will give better power to top PR single Fireball mages, but lesser power to lower PR Fireball mages.

QBsutekh137 February 7 2005 5:32 PM EST

FB did not dominate as a single-mage strategy in CB1, so why would it here (in lieu of CoBF nullifying it)?

Moniker has an excellent point. Hadn't really thought if it that way. That is the basic question here: Why has FB been singled out for nullification? Is it just because Balrog's are cool and based on fire? If the Balrog had been an ice monster, would we see CoC being nerfed?

If it is because FB dominates so much in ranged, then make ranged weaponry more powerful or cheaper to upgrade. Also, let's not forget that AMF and GA are still great defenses against FB (although GA not as much these days because of DM).

Finally, maybe there ARE other nullifiers on the way. *smile*

Starseed^Lure February 7 2005 5:48 PM EST

All strategies have their weakness. I can't say, yet, if CoBF should get a nerfing, because honestly I don't think we've let things settle down enough yet. Anyone remember when Jon boosted CoC damage by 40%? That's a huge buff, yet still bearly anyone uses it.

I think we need to see how far this rabbit hole goes, before we even consider changing anything. I'd like to see how the game will evolve.

One thing for sure: if I was running a single mage strat right now, I'd be considering my options very carefully as the market fills with these cloaks.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 7 2005 5:59 PM EST

FB rules.

For one reason. DM.

FB's main drawbacks were is split of damage over multiple minions, which combined with AS mean you had a hard time of finishing minions off with FB and the amount of returned damge it took from GA, especially coupled with multiple minion.

That's why FB never ruled in CB1.

DM has been the great equaliser here. DM is great (and somewhat overpowered. You don't think so, consider the way DM interacts with enchantment stacking...). Combined with FB, they both become top notch.

And I still consider Talhearn to be a single minion. ;)

A single minion with two bodies... ;P

QBsutekh137 February 7 2005 6:44 PM EST

Yes, but DM has a huge weakness -- fizzling one's own offensive enchantments. I love fighting folks with huge DM...they don't seem to have any effect on me. *smile*

I still prefer AMF for the long haul, though that is only because magic seems so popular. When more tanks rise up, then I will be left gnashing my teeth...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 7 2005 7:04 PM EST

Ah, but who needs AMF, when you mostly face FB, and a CBF can take care of that?

And who needs EC when your opponents are either Mages, or dead in 3 rounds?


Shadowcat February 7 2005 7:23 PM EST

Arorrr you completely missed my point, I don't care what the Cobf did/does/will do, the bottom line is using one is employing a certain strategy. Just like any other strategy you will beat some people and get beaten by others, and counters to those strategies will evolve as more time and money gets thrown into the game.

Using a Cobf isn't an automatic "I win" button, the fact that it's effective against 90% of the strategies being employed now doesn't mean it won't be rendered obsolete 2 months from now. If an item got introduced that let you dodge arrows I wouldn't give up my single archer, I'd just accept that as another strategy I can't beat, and go back to picking on all the rest of the people I can obliterate. I don't see what's hard to accept about a system where you can beat 9 out of 10 people and maybe never beat the 10th because of the strategy you employ, but if you really had to beat that 10th person you could adjust your strategy and maybe not beat all of the other 9 but own the 10th. In my opinion that inspires a lot more lasting value than being able to beat every last person just because you spent more time and money to get to the top.

That said I don't entirely agree with the whole NW trumping exp thing, but it's there, it's an interesting obstacle, if your really that freaked out about being able to beat 0.25% of the population, deal with it =p.

Arorrr February 7 2005 10:52 PM EST


The point I'm trying to raise here is WHY does CoBF have to be "one item for all item". If Jon feels there is a need to curve FB, then make another cloak or another item and add that FB blocking magic to it. Don't combine CoBF melee train-wreck skill and FB immunity.

It's all come down to balance. 2 items = more diverse strat, instead of 1 single item to end all.

3D February 7 2005 10:54 PM EST

I agree with this, but then i don't since I want a cobf =P

Frost February 8 2005 12:41 AM EST

CoBF doesn't just block FB dmg it also does dmg by itself when your melee attack it ALoT of dmg at the end of the battle my ToJ has negative 65k hp and if that wasnt bad enough some people with CoBF actually use FB too so they have one of the best spells plus they are immune to it themselves, whats this all about? wheres the negative of haveing CoBF? It doesn't match your shirt? i personally don't like it when i spend all that time fighting and then a camper somehow comes from nothing beats me in PR and Score. Become a camper? or keep fighting and save enough money to buy a CoBF from the same guy.

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] February 8 2005 12:47 AM EST

Frost, enchantments and skills go to 0 on that minion, losing archery or bloodlust hurts a lot, no enchants is never good either and it has it's own splash damage.
Enough downsides? ;P

Frost February 8 2005 1:11 AM EST

can you grasp the concept though? im gonna buy a item from the same guy that did nothing but camp to beat me in pr and score the item of course will cost ALOT of cash. Oh and about no enchantments? enchantments have been weakend anyway so it really doesnt matter just make it a FB mage and it kills almost the whole population...well it killed me..i lost about 10k pr finding a new strat still cant kill...but maby we're in the wrong direction instead of weakening CoBF we should make MM stronger

3D February 8 2005 1:12 AM EST

why just MM?

Frost February 8 2005 1:25 AM EST

im guessing MM cause............................hmmm...............still thinking.......................................CoC was already buffed, either that or make decay hit more and sooner

Majestik Moose February 8 2005 3:33 AM EST

you cannot camp to beat anyone in PR.. (unless you use the money from camping to buy a high PR char), but aside from that:
What happends if the FB protection from the CoBF is raised?
Well... That question is very complex. (To fully predict the impact is impossible). My guess is that
. More of the mageteams in the high PR region that now depends on MM, will transfer to FB.
. The single FB mages will stay single.
. The number of bloodlust tanks will decrease, (they will probably die before they have done enough damage).
. Archers will always equip seekers.
. Cone of Cold / Magic Missile will be very unpopular, as well as ToI/ToS
. DM will sink in popularity, AMF will rise
. There will be lesser single tanks
(only guesses, but I can give reasons for anyone of them)

xDanELx February 8 2005 3:38 AM EST

HypnoToad is one of the reasons for the decline in the number of tanks, right Moose? ;)

Frost February 8 2005 3:55 AM EST

yea you beat people in pr with a cobf back in the day when there was more FB mages you could kill higher pr chars with your cobf and get more exp how did u miss that?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 8 2005 4:15 AM EST

Hi MM, just a couple of points.

"but aside from that: What happends if the FB protection from the CoBF is raised?"

Do you mean lowered? If it's raised any more, FB will die out...

"My guess is that
. More of the mageteams in the high PR region that now depends on MM, will transfer to FB.
. The single FB mages will stay single."

I tried both FB and MM with DM. Even with a FB lower than my MM, FB performed much better. If an established MM team uses AMF, they might get more benefit from staying with MM than changing to FB.

. Archers will always equip seekers."

IF FB mages stay single, seekers are moot.

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] February 8 2005 4:50 AM EST

GL, ToJs ;) seekers go right past them to the mage.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 8 2005 4:56 AM EST

Ah... Missed that... To focused with Single Mages using a ToE.. >_<

But what relation is there between a CBF s FB reduction and single mages using ToJ s?

Majestik Moose February 8 2005 6:10 AM EST

first point:
yeah.. early in the morning after tough exercises last night.. (I'm having enormous problems explaining myself as is :)

The MM to FB transfer, is because FB kills faster.. many top PR teams has four minions, and using fireball works better than MM on them.

MM/AMF combo seems tough to get, since you will need AS/raw HP (as usual), big MM (to avoid AMF), big AMF (else it doesnt give too much effect), and also something against tanks (GA for instance).. too much things to spend XP on imo.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 8 2005 8:17 AM EST

it's starting to feel like I'm flogging a dead horse. ;P But;

"The MM to FB transfer, is because FB kills faster.. many top PR teams has four minions, and using fireball works better than MM on them."

FB only kills faster/works better on multi minion teams when combined with DM. If the mage doesn't use DM, they're better off using MM.

Back to the originaly point of the topic, I think the main reason for concern with CBF s FB damage reduction is that it's direct. And nothing else known so far in CB2 reduces damage directly. Does that make them overpowered though? Or just different?


MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] February 8 2005 8:28 AM EST

"FB only kills faster/works better on multi minion teams when combined with DM. If the mage doesn't use DM, they're better off using MM."

I enjoy flogging dead horses too :)
You're wrong there, MM fires in the 2nd round, against a 5 "minion" team, you're looking at a 7 round fight, killing one opponent per round.
FB however has the chance to rather than hit a 10k HP minion for 50k damage and waste some of it, spread that damage out onto the other minions and finish the fight in ranged.

QBJohnnywas February 8 2005 8:35 AM EST

Glad somebody mentioned flogging dead horses! =) The CoBF subject definitely feels like a very dead horse that has been dragged across very rough ground.

I'll add my tupenny thoughts to this one even though there's not really much meat on them there bones. If you don't want to be beaten by CoBF char, get an archer or use MM, CoC. Better still, don't fight him at all! Or wait until a few large mage characters using CoC start rising up. After the 40% addition to it's damage it's only a matter of time before someobody sees that as a subject to whine over!

Anybody think slings are overpowered?


Frost February 8 2005 11:37 AM EST all missed it long time ago....a FB mage with CoBF kills almost everything add another minion with a bow and tatto, completed char

InebriatedArsonist February 8 2005 12:06 PM EST

Frost: all missed it long time ago....a FB mage with CoBF kills almost everything add another minion with a bow and tatto, completed char

Almost everything? Any character with a relatively high AMF, GA or a combination of both will pose a significant problem to any fireball/CoBF mage.

Frost February 8 2005 12:12 PM EST

ok im sorry a FB mage with DM and a Cobf and a archer/ completed char

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 8 2005 12:54 PM EST

*Whistles innocently*
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001ByH">Are CoBF a bit much?</a>