ToJ nerf idea (in General)

deifeln March 4 2005 4:59 PM EST

How would people feel about a ToJ nerf that made it act less like a meat shield and more like a regular UC-based minion. I think it trains too much HP.


Maelstrom March 4 2005 5:15 PM EST

I'm quite happy with my meat shield. It's quite rare that my ToJ ever does damage, though without it I don't last long at all.

Arorrr March 4 2005 5:26 PM EST

I think there is a bug still with ToJ. Right now, it's very powerful. Everyone remembers about the "bugs" with tattoes that in the beginning Jon insisted nothing wrong.... like the bug with Tattoes not taking exp away from winning or ToJ exp train 1x on every stat or even Endurance skill not working...

Look at this User: drunkenuber. His character is only 4K PR. With a large rent ToJ, he is able to beat Almuric (Top 20 PR at the moment) and his fight list are all top 50-100 PR-wise. I'm just shaking my head at his fighting list.

Where is a crossing line that a huge ToJ alone can win a fully deck 190K PR character? (4K PR can do jack comparing to a 190K PR char, experience-wise). Remember, Almuric character has been in the beginning of CB2. So, the ToJ power trumps Almuric T, which is one of the best T out there.

BrandonLP March 4 2005 5:28 PM EST

deifeln, while you're on the correct track of pointing out an obviously very powerful item, you've yet to come up with a nerf idea, as the title says. Jon likes numbers and unless you have an amazing idea or some numbers to throw his way, it's just something we're all going to have to live with.

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] March 4 2005 5:41 PM EST

I always have fun thinking of nerf ideas--that usually are bad ones I might add. But heres one:

Creat a PR Gap, say of 20%. If an opponent fights another opponent with a PR Gap within 20%, the ToJ, or ANY Tattoo for that matter, would function at full effect. As the PR GAP increases the Tattoo's effectiveness decreases, until it become useless or even detrimental at very high PR Gaps.

This would solve the above perceived problem---if there really is a problem at all. I don't know how difficult it would be to code it however and it might be ridiculously impossible from a code standpoint.

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] March 4 2005 7:41 PM EST

ToJ needs a nerf? 0_o

Been a while since I've really done much in the way of strats but last I checked ToJ was quite wimpy. *waits for the flaming*

If anything it'd need to have it's effectiveness linked to PR (as Barron suggested). However that's if it were to be nerfed at all. What may I ask is wrong with simply accepting that Jon wants score to be the more important stat for finding opponents?
Very few people can fight by PR even as it was in CB1. In CB2 it's slightly more extreme but still allows you to fight at score, also allows new players another way of catching up, which of course is certainly a good thing. How many people liked having to chase down 3mil PR in CB1 with no bonus to help them?

Undertow March 4 2005 8:21 PM EST

:: on screen keyboard ::

yeah, i like TOJ'S being able to act as farm catalists. Making it take 10% of the time to get to 50 k pr+.

Fishead March 4 2005 9:19 PM EST

What's up with all the calls for nerfing? Do your mama's only let you play with soft spongy toys because they're safe? There are no nerfs in the real world; learn to work your strategy around things, it's fun.

Caedmon [Revenge of the Forgers] March 4 2005 9:37 PM EST

the problem with "it's fun" is that the real world strategy is to log on, rent the biggest ToJ available, and fight. My idea of fun does not include what basically boils down to a game of "War" ToJ is bigger than yours, so I win, etc.

And before you flame me, check out my character and my melee weapon...I still can't hit some of those blasted ToJs regularly, much less win.

LumpBot March 4 2005 9:44 PM EST

yeah, the whole "mama" and "real world" isn't a valid arguement. If I could shoot fireballs in the real world, college teachers would be a lot easier to deal with. Also it shows you aren't used to Jon's ways of random nerfs. IAs, Long Range, all the old CB1 stuff. I personally think they are a bit over the top, too good of a supporter item.

Caedmon [Revenge of the Forgers] March 4 2005 9:54 PM EST

and we'll get to your Balrog cloak next, Fishhead. "Real world strat" my behind. :)

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] March 4 2005 9:55 PM EST

Spaceman, actually his point is quite valid. ToJs are not overpowered, simply a way of temporarily increasing your PR, they really are weak on most chars that have one that isn't huge for their PR, unless of course you're using it as no more than a meatsheild.

I really don't see what's wrong with just accepting that while you're at a low PR, ToJs are one of the items that will really dominate your fights. Just fight by score, that's all you have to do. So what if some guy with equal PR and a terrible strat can beat you, he has an hour or two of winning, big deal. ToJs are king of newb equip (well, them or CoBFs anyway) but they aren't overpowered, especially not as your PR goes up.

Fishead March 5 2005 1:59 AM EST

I've been through a lot of nerfs in CB1; ranged weapons, loss of VA in ranged, IA's, and had both my CoBF's in CB1 and CB2 nerfed multiple times, hence it's name:) If John does something to balance the game you shift with the change. John knows what's going on and if something needs to be changed, he will change it. If you think something is too powerful, find a way to conquer it, that's the interesting part of the game. Life and CB without challenge is boring.

What I mean by nerfs in the real world: Simply saying it's unfair seldom changes things. We learn to solve our problems, not ask someone else to make it go away. If you complain that it's too hard to get into a school, or pass a test to get certified, do you think the admins will make it easier for you? You have to try harder.

I apologize if I insulted anyone with the mama's comment, but there seem to be a lot of requests for nerfs at such an early stage in the game. John will work it all out, he usually does.

Sevare March 5 2005 3:22 AM EST

My experience with actual UC minions agree with the Toj...UC minions need to have UC high, and plenty of Dex, yes, but they also need meat on their bones to support the punishment they take due to lack of most armor. Saying you dont want a UC minion thats a meatshield is like saying you want a damage mage without a DD spell. Of corse I base this on how UC minions worked in CB1. The greatest bane to UC minions are mages, so you either need HP, AMF, or bite the dust. Seeing as giving a ToJ AMF casting would be making it even more powerful, and having them bite the dust would be a nerf everyone hates, having them train tons of HP is fine with me.

Lumpy Koala March 5 2005 5:59 AM EST

Having them train HP is fine with me too. But having them to have HP and Endurance almost as high as a same level TOE is simply too much. That's all I have to say.

BrandonLP March 6 2005 1:54 AM EST

"What I mean by nerfs in the real world: Simply saying it's unfair seldom changes things. We learn to solve our problems, not ask someone else to make it go away. If you complain that it's too hard to get into a school, or pass a test to get certified, do you think the admins will make it easier for you? You have to try harder."

You strike me as the kind of person intelligent enough to understand the basics of democracy. I'm not saying CB2 is a democracy, however much like a democracy if you don't like something, just as the creator of this post has shown, you have every right to make it well-known and rally other people to your cause. Should racism not have been "nerfed?" Should we just have told the Jews to start using a ToE? Shall we tell the victims of ethnic cleansing to get better AC? Please, think about your responses and don't relate them to real life unless you've got an answer a bit more thoughtful than something equating to "suck it up."

No one is asking Jon to remove ToJs from the game or even make them useless for that matter. All people are doing is voicing their concern over an issue that means something to them.

Bmagnety March 6 2005 4:33 AM EST

If memory serves me right (usualy it dont here) But hasent the Beloved ToJ been "nerfed" enough already?....with the increased power of the ToE ,CoC & CoBF untill last week.(ducks as the flames &"your wrong" begin to fly)

The ToJ is & should be a very desired & treasured piece of equipment.Those few who supported CB2 should receive a little stronger/better Tattoo since its a supporter item. Otherwise why give Jonathan your $10 when you can camp or buy from someone else a better item.

Thats my 2 cents

Fishead March 6 2005 4:36 AM EST

We find ways to overcome racism... We don't get racists nerfed. Wouldn't it have been nice to nerf Hitler? I'd like to nerf a lot of things out here in the real world, it's just not that simple. But, in CB, sometimes it is that simple. Maybe we can nerf nuclear weapons. They're too powerful.

QBJohnnywas March 6 2005 5:28 AM EST

With regard to low pr people using a ToJ to attack people higher in score/pr than them there is a strat to counter it, that helps you out in much the same way as it helps them.

Go to rentals and see who is renting out large ToJ's. Put them on your favourites list. When the rental period runs out farm them mercilessly. If they are above your score you raise your score and for a time get higher rewards. It may not last long but it's very very satisfying! =)

Gfbasenut1 March 6 2005 11:10 PM EST

I think it's fine the way it is. I depend on my 401k ToJ every day. No nerf:)

miteke [Superheros] March 7 2005 10:37 AM EST

I think the best solution to all tattoos is to have them consume experience that would have gone to minions. Correct me if I am wrong, but if you earn 100 experience, your single minion gets 100 and the tattoo gets 100. If you have 2 minions, the tattoo and both minions get 50. If you have 4 minions, each get 25, including the tattoo.

I would think it should be 50 experience each for a single minion with a tattoo, and 20 each for 4 minions with a tattoo. A single minion with no tattoo would get the entire chunk of 100 experience.

Or are my observations wrong?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 7 2005 11:53 AM EST

I thought the tattoo got the same amount of xp, no matter how many minions your team has...

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] March 7 2005 3:23 PM EST

miteke, single minion characters are exceptionally powerful as it is, they really do not need any more advantages.

A ToJ/ToF/ToS/ToI would be very overpowered on a big single minion if they had an advantage over 4 minion teams... as it is I think a big DD tat could look quite overpowered on one of them.

If you're going 1 minion, don't use a tat with a familiar ;) use something that it's level really doesn't matter (ToE=Can have a very low level in comparison to other tats and it will still get 70% damage reduction. ToA=It's level in comparison to your PR means nothing really, any bonus to a single tank's ST/DX is a HUGE advantage). Or as I already mentioned, a nice big DD tat may work well too. However to give single minions the advantage with every tat would make the game based entirely around them, very few 4 minion teams would still win.

Colonel Custard March 7 2005 5:26 PM EST

is miteke's example right about a ToJ getting as much XP as each minion? wouldn't the ToJ get 100 xp no matter what (or some calculated percentage of the total, not per-minion xp gained)?
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