Help me iron out strat change (in General)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 20 2005 5:15 AM EST

Hi all! It's time for me to monkey around with my main character again so I want to run my thoughts by you all.

1) I will be using a MgS and my ToE, so I'll need two minions.

2) MgS works well with a CBF, even though I don't have one atm, I'll get one sometime for the MgS minion.

3) I'm going to keep Talhearn as a Mage and place the MgS minion in front of him as a wall. The wall will train only Protection (base), Evasion and HPs. Talhearn will train (very small amount, will use ToE to boost) HPs, MM (most useful DD spell. Toyed between CoC, but with damage spread over minions, it'll have a hard time dealing with MgS) 1 EO and a little into GA (is GA capped? Or if it's so much larger than damage taken, it'll reutn 100% or over of damage done?).

I'm not sure which EO to train. If I train AMF, that should make me (or the wall at least) almost immune to DD spells. But the wall's only defense versus physical attack (apart from the CBF fire damage in melee) would be Evasion/DBs. Attackers willl still get double hits due to dex gap. Should I train EC instead of AMF? Let the MgS work as a 40% AMF and try to reduce damage dealt to the wall by lowering str and dex of my attackers? Oh and get the biggest AC armour on the wall, Adam, HoD, etc.

With this massive wall, Talhearn will only take damage from AMF returns, GA, DD spread spells and Seeker ammo. Which I hope the ToE will help manage.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 20 2005 5:18 AM EST

A cursory look seems that GA returns as a max around 52.2/3% of damage done.

But I could be way off with this...

Another thing to mention, if MgS doesn't work versus Decay, AMF is still the only way to reduce this spell...

Jason Bourne March 20 2005 5:26 AM EST

Toe reduces decay i believe

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 20 2005 5:44 AM EST

Hi IronGiant. I'm fairly sure ToE (endurance as a whole) doesn't reduce Decay damage. But I'd have to go check the changelogs...

More thoughts;

I'd be willing to go to three minions.

1: Wall. HP/Prot MgS + CBF.
2: E. EC/AMF + GA.
3: M. HP + MM.

But I wouldn't go to 4 minions. Even tohugh that would let me use both AMF and EC, it would reduce the amount of xp I could train into MM, which needs to be kept as high as possible.

So, 2/3 Minions? AMF/EC?


Becoming March 20 2005 6:32 AM EST

Personally, I think that EC is a waste. The effects of Dex and Str are weighted heavily at the low end and your wall will always have 20/20 unless you change that down the road, so the experience would be better spent elsewhere.

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] March 20 2005 6:38 AM EST

1, Stay as a 1 minion! Maybe two but no more... just my thoughts but if you stay one minion past 500k PR, you will really have a chance at being in the top 5 at least (well, not for PR, but you'll beat all but a few chars)

2, If you really want to change. AMF, not EC, at least not until there are enough tanks around to give reason to it.

3, Don't go 3 minions.

4, Only AMF reduces decay.

5, Look into CoC again, I have no doubt that it's the most powerful DD, even with the MgS.

6, Supporter items are often changed a lot, wait a while before getting another minion or a change to the MgS could make buying a new minion a waste.

QBJohnnywas March 20 2005 7:44 AM EST

GL, I agree with Mr C, wait a while before jumping on this item. Jon's post implies that there are more Power Shields on the way, if not immediately. I suspect there may be a mage friendly one coming at some point, given most mage orientated players cries for mage armour. And how many nerfings have new items taken in the first few weeks? Wait until the dust settles a little bit. =)

QBJohnnywas March 20 2005 8:09 AM EST

Oh and also in agreement with Mr C. I'd advise CoC, because although it's damage is spread the amount it does means that you can cut through multi minion teams far more easily than magic missile. And with a ToE and the 'Wall' your mage will last into melee quite easily I would have thought. Just my two shillings..

QBJohnnywas March 20 2005 8:21 AM EST

Another thing to think about might be going ToA again and making Talhearn a CoC archer. The extra damage in ranged from a decent bow might be more useful than MM if you're sticking with that, and would make far more sense if you go CoC. More cost mind you...

QBJohnnywas March 20 2005 8:40 AM EST

Sorry, more thoughts:

Is it worth putting a small amount into GA? DM will kill that quicker than you can say NERF.

You're going to be very vulnerable to tank based teams. A decent archer will kill the wall pretty quickly. Unless you have a very large pair of DBs. Even if you have your ac as high as it can go that's not going to stop a large bow - and by the time you have plowed all your cash into the MgS and your DB's and all that heavy armour those tank teams out there will have done the same to their weapons. And if that happens your mage is going to need more than a small HP. My mage on Raven has 36k HP and my LToE (currently at nearly level 40000) keeps him alive to the end of the battle with most of his HP intact when I face mages. But against a decent tank at my level, Kaiousama for instance, it's a draw at best.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 20 2005 9:03 AM EST

;) I've not received the shield yet, and don't have the cash to jump into buying a new minion, so I'm going to take my time and think things through (with your help! ;P ).

With the reduction of CBFs FB absorbtion I'm finding FB+DM working well again. But, every CBF wearer (bar any FBers) will use a MgS as well. With 1 minion on a team immune to FB (especially with any AMF) the rest of the minions on the team take so much less damage anyway. I really think this new item has killed FB.

If it could be used with tattoos (and why can't it?) I'd happily stick it on Talhearn and re train his DD spell.

As it is, my ToE is performing surprisingly well as a psuedo AMF, large FBs and CoCs still hurt, but my tat just needs to get bigger.

Whatever happens, I'm going to untrain FB. Which makes me want to change DM anyway.

I'm going to stick with GA. If i can keep returning 50% of the damage inflicted on me, and have HPs about 4 times the size others have (well, that's taking ToE's reduction into account) GA should serve me well. Better than protection, the only other ED I'd consider.

I'm not changing from my ToE, that's pretty much solid now, even with the introduction of the Tattoo Artist, I'd really have to be pursaded to change it to a ToA and go Tank or Archer/CoC.

So that leaves me with the choice of MM/CoC and EC/AMF. With DB's I should reduce the amount of extra hits on me from physical attacks, but attackers will get 2 on me. My ToE should deal with that though. CoC is attractive because of it's extra damage. If damage is going to be absorbed by the MgS, then getting the most damage from my attack is paramount. The only thing MM has over CoC for this is that multiple minions will diltue CoCs damage, boosting the MgS until the other minions die. That and the fact I'll be doing nothing in ranged and will need to last until Melee.

I agree with Becoming. EC is weak, it's only really useful if you can lower your opponents str to zero. With the top tanks using ToA's, this will never happen. All EC will do is wipe thier ToA increases.

Getting a second minion using a MgS and CBF and only training HPs on him will diltue the xp on Talhearn too much...

Maybe I should stay single and go CoC/AMF/GA...


AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 20 2005 9:08 AM EST

Oh and my reasoning behind having GA, even if it's small, is that most people will want to use AMF versus me, as I aim to have a high DD spell. Which means generally, they won't be using DM.

QBJohnnywas March 20 2005 9:14 AM EST

My CoC is at 56k with the rented corn - hits a single minion for an average 35k and multiple minions for about 8-12k each at best. And the power of the spell means that AMF reduction is comparitively a lot less than other DD spells And my usual advice to you GL is don't dilute your XP too much - you don't have to be protecting against EVERY strat! =)

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] March 20 2005 9:33 AM EST

CoC is attractive because of it's extra damage. If damage is going to be absorbed by the MgS, then getting the most damage from my attack is paramount. The only thing MM has over CoC for this is that multiple minions will diltue CoCs damage, boosting the MgS until the other minions die. That and the fact I'll be doing nothing in ranged and will need to last until Melee.

MgS wont even get close to CoC damage. CoC damage is huge, back a while ago, maybe even a month ago now when I still had King Chuckles (single mage version of it anyway) I was getting 150k+ damage per hit, devided by 5 you have 30k per minion, that'd only last a round or two anyway then you have the full hit of the CoC on the MgS minion, you're not going to stop CoC damage, it's like trying to block a CB1 Elbow's damage but even then you could use 20 HP meatshields against it. Here there is no real defense against CoC (AMF is your best bet but even then it's mostly for doing damage).

And as for having to last into melee, get 5 rounds or more and you'll do fine. You probably get 3 rounds easily anyway, switch to AMF and you'll get 5 easy.

QBJohnnywas March 20 2005 9:43 AM EST

Yeah, what Mr C says!

The main consideration with CoC is to ensure that the mage lasts into melee. A large HP and ToE will go a long way to ensuring that. All other enchantments are icing on the cake and, IMO, should be considered secondary in the amount of xp they receive.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 20 2005 12:27 PM EST

Gahh!!! Just lost post... Can't face typing it out again, so here's the gist.

Why would a single mage be preferable over a set up like this;

1: Enchanter; AMF/GA (small GA)
2: Tank/Wall; HP/Base Prot/Evasion + MgS/CBF
3: Mage: CoC/HP (Small HP) + ToE (to increase smaller life versus AMF/GA etc)

I'm not sure whether the tank or enchanter should be first.

Both the 3 min and single CoC mage set up have sim xp distributions.


QBJohnnywas March 20 2005 12:35 PM EST

If you add other minions keep Talhearn as he is. A HP as big as that on a mage in a multi minion team will make that more than a match for any other team at your pr and probably quite a bit higher.

The only reason a multi team will be better than a single mage is the advantage of the enchanter meatshields and the multiple spell slots. That and your ToE will keep your mage alive for a very long time. The obvious disadvantage is the dilution of xp.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 20 2005 4:27 PM EST

:) If I do add in minions I'll keep Talhearn as is, until I buy the enchanter. At which point, I'll un learn AMF and GA on Tal, learn them on the E and sink the xp back into Tal's CoC. :)

The xp dilution won't be too bad with three minions.

Is there any reason (bar cost) that I should stay single?

Heh, with all the new items focused on mages (and to be honest, there needed to be..) do you think we'll see anything to counter ranged? It and archers are the only type of attack that has no counter.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] March 20 2005 4:45 PM EST

Oh if you want to prepare for multi minion teams keep MM.
I have no idea what the other guy was thinking but MM is best for multi minion due to higher directed damage a FB or CoC will be diluted and not as effective.

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] March 20 2005 6:17 PM EST

GL, archery has no counter? Huh?
20 HP minion
20 HP minion
20 HP minion
Tank or Mage

Bye bye archer.

20 HP minions work great, archers have 3 hits and they aren't even as big damage as they were in CB1.

Same for FB/MM. MgS, CoBF and AMF.

Melee is king, always has been.

Zoglog, actually, most multiple minion teams have two enchanters in front, MM will take at least two rounds to kill them whereas fireball or cone of cold will kill them AND hurt the other minions a lot quicker.
Using MM gives you the same problem as an archer has. Only you have to wait an extra round before you start shooting. You can hit for 20mil damage each hit but those same 20 HP meatshields will waste enough rounds for you to lose. Then again that is only my opinion.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 20 2005 6:26 PM EST

;) I ment no item counter.

Melee has CBF.
FB has CBF.
DD has MgS.

But there is no item counter to Archery.


Becoming March 20 2005 8:10 PM EST

Wait for the Archer Shield. ;)

Nightmare [NewNightmares] March 20 2005 9:15 PM EST

Melee, FB and the rest of the DD spells have one thing in common.. they hit for more than 3 rounds. Archers don't really need a counter in the form of an item, since they have teams that counteract them easily.

If you are going to lose the SMM setup, a 2M setup of SM (Shield & Mage) would be my suggestion. The Mage training what you have been using on him, and the Shield wearing his MgS/CoBF/AC stuff and training something like 80% HP, 10% STR, 10% DEX and a base Prot. so you can throw a xbow on him to help do extra damage to mages and other Shield minions. Thats just me though :-D

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 21 2005 3:05 AM EST

:) Personally, I think I was just eager to use the MgS... My ToE will work wonders if I have a massive amount of HPs. Which I'll only get by staying single.

With the new item types coming out, it would be nice to have something else that could be used on a E/M minion using a Tat. At the moment, I can only use Helm/Gloves/Boots and Shields if I want to take a magic penalty, as there are no magic friendly shields...

Hmmm... Here's one thing I haven't considered, the MgS is in it's item type, which has been stated that it can't be equipped with a tat. Can it also be equipped with a noraml shield? I doubt it, but hey... ;P

Becoming March 21 2005 3:21 AM EST

Nightmare, you said, "archers don't really need a counter in the form of an item, since they have teams that counteract them easily."

How is that different from Mage teams? Have you seen the number of teams with one, or even two, dedicated AMF minions? That's a pretty good counter if I've ever seen one, yet here we are with this new supporter item to further reduce magic damage. Not to mention the fact that these effect ALL dd spells, not just one. So essentially, you get extreme protection from all mages which amounts to about half of your choices for damage-dealing minions.

I don't think an archer shield is out of the question.

Nightmare [NewNightmares] March 21 2005 3:37 AM EST

Becoming - The teams that are built to be anti-mage have to train a spell.. AMF. You put an archer against 3 enchanters with a little meat on em, and that cuts out all three ranged rounds. Unless someone goes the route of Shabbleflab, which would be kinda silly since the archer nerfs on cb1 were brought over here, it goes right to a melee weapon.

Nightmare [NewNightmares] March 21 2005 3:38 AM EST

oh, and you can't use a shield and a PS :-P

Becoming March 21 2005 3:45 AM EST

Yes and your point? AMF prevents damage and also damages mages. That's something that no 20hp enchanter will ever be able to do to an archer.

Besides, *something* has to kill those no hp minions. In reality, 20hp minions hurt a MM-based team just as much as an archery-based team. Anyways, eliminating 3/4 of a team in ranged is pretty dang good in my opinion. But wait, those three 20hp minions that died surely ruined that archer's strategy of killing three minions in ranged! lol :)

Nightmare [NewNightmares] March 21 2005 4:04 AM EST

If those enchanters have 20hp, they would die in the first 3 rounds that anyone on the opposing side did anything. *points to where it says "meat on their bones", whether its from training, AS, or both* Also, I'm not against Jonathan someday possibly creating an anti-archer shield, I'm just saying it isn't really necessary, especially at this point. Lets ask ourselves a question.. Are archers are overpowering right now? No, last I checked it was single mages with ToEs that were dominant. This is just something to level the playing field a bit more. Maybe, when single ELBow wielding tanks start tearing up the place, I could see an anti-tank shield of some sort.. but until then, lets hope it'll just be the CoBF and ToE keeping tanks down a peg.

Becoming March 21 2005 4:19 AM EST

I don't see how this Mage Shield would help much versus single mages since they do such large amounts of damage if they live long enough. On the other hand, I do see it having a major impact versus multi-minion mage teams. Their DD's are significantly diluted, which lets those shiny new Mage Shields take off a huge chunk of each spells damage in addition to the effects of AMF.

I want to see Majestik Moose add a +30 Mage Shield to his wall minion. I would surely cry when my mages did <5k damage per MM to him, but I would also be laughing my butt off.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 21 2005 5:06 AM EST

Gib mage itam ama! ;)

As Bec said, three 20 HP minions have the same effect versus MM mages as they do Archers. But if you don't care about enchantments on 'em, add a MgS and the might just live longer than 1 round. Actually, just stick it on the first, and let the other 2 train AMF. ;)

The three 20 HP minions have a lesser effect versus FB/CoC but would lower the damage of these on your main for one round.

From what I undertand of the order of things picture the following;

Large DD spell, first reduced by AMF. 50% is a good number for this, so your spell now has 1/2 it's potential damage. Next it gets stopped by a minions MgS, a direct reduction of damage up to 40%. (so you're now doing 20% of your orginal damage.

Next, in this order AC/Protection/Endurance further reduces your damage. Well, we can ignore Endurance, atm there is no way to use Endurance+MgS. If Protection is a percentage reducation, ignoring AC (and assuming a Prot of 20) you now do a whopping 4% of your orignal DD damage.

Consider your DD spell being FB. If the MgS wearer is also wearing a CBF, it's direct reduction is applied last, and only needs to be tiny to absorb 4%... Let alone ignore the fact it has a constant upgrade cost and can quite easily reach a high reduction.


MrC mention dealing out 150K with his CoC. On a single target (the 50% AMF enchnter is already dead...) he would deal around (based on the size of the MgS) 6000 damage per hit...


Please forgive me if my maths is off at all, I keep getting intrupted at work, and it's been a long weekend which I'm still trying to recover from!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 21 2005 5:20 AM EST

Oh, another thing that makes CoC the spell of choice now.

In the Ranged rounds, FB/MM suffer from additional reduced damage penalties. Making it easier for MgS/CBF to negate them...

As CoC only fires in Melee, it suffers no reduction to it's damage.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 21 2005 5:26 AM EST

Gahh... What was I thinking with my maths... >_<

It should be more like;

1) AMF (assume .50 effect) 50% reduction.
2) MgS (assume large enough to hit cap) 40% reduction. Total damage now 30%.
3) Reduce by AC/Protection (assume prot of 20, ignore AC) 20% reduction. Total damage is now 24%.


So a 150K CoC does around 36K.

Still, CBF s will eat FB.

BooDiggens March 21 2005 5:30 AM EST

...."if I have a massive amount of HPs. Which I'll only get by staying single. "

I've been single for the past year, and I have gained no HP. :(

Becoming March 21 2005 5:32 AM EST


AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 21 2005 6:00 AM EST

OMG! I'm crying in the office!

I've been married for nearly a year now, so I'm a two minion team!

But we're thinking of creating a few new minions in the next couple of years!

QBJohnnywas March 21 2005 6:03 AM EST

LOL! You're gonna want enchanters GL, enchanters. I don't think your other half would be too happy with tanks....

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 21 2005 6:08 AM EST

1 Tank and 1 Enchanter would make a well rounded team! ;) We already have a UC minion and a Mage, so the new tank would have to be an archer! ;)

Sedecim March 21 2005 7:20 AM EST


AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 21 2005 8:30 AM EST

More thoughts....

Given the example above (reducing damage to 24%), A large enough ToE will hit a 75% reduction without any of the other skills/items...

Tack on AMF on the front (if we keep it at 0.5 as above) for a total reduction (ignoring armour/protection) of 87.5%. :)

Add in a protection of 20 for 90% reduction!

I don't feel so bad about the MgS now! ;) Also, with the scaling upgrade cost, the MgS will lose effectivness at higher levels because it's a direct reduction. While the ToE will grow to be redundant when it's level grows far above the damage you will take.

CBF still pwns ( :P ) FB though. And the MgS being usable with CBF s kills it.
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