ToE ToA and Minion PR (in General)

I do not think lesser or regular ToE and ToA should add to the PR of your character, or the addition should be greatly reduced and here is why.

If you take a 1PR character and give him a 100K lvl ToF, He gets an extra minion with 10K HP and something capable of doing considerable damage to any opponent even near his PR and could probable challenge people of considerably higher PR.

Give that same 1PR character a 100K ToE. Let us say for easy math purposes that it nerfs the 50% of damage, a fairly high level of nerf. This character is 1PR and has 20 HP. A 40 damage blow from any source, be it DD or ranged kills him.

If you give a 1PR character a ToJ, well I think that effect is already well spoken for.

So you say OK 1PR is too extreme to count. Do the extrapolation yourself. If you add PR to the character one constant remains the same, you have to have HP equivalent to the PR of characters your are trying to beat, or at least close to it, in order to win, because without your minion surviving the tat is worthless.

HP is not required for any other tat to be effective. All minions on the team can be dead but the tat and the fights outcome is greatly effected.

In conclusion, I can think of no example in which the equipping of a big ToE or ToA will have as much impact on the character as another tat of equal level would.

Sure, if you grow a ToA or ToE on a character specifically designed for that tat, the impact can be large, but that already accomplishes the spirit of the tats and Jon's desire to make them non-musical. Why penalize a character who by its very nature is already locked into a strat that without the tat would not be nearly as powerful. This is obviously more so the case with a ToA than a ToE. Thoughts and or flames?

I have a lesser ToE and I don't mind the extra pr from the tattoo. Here's why - endurance is essentially extra hp. The ToA is extra ST/DX. Both SHOULD show as pr because you are raising the stats of your character.

I guess I should have added to the reason why its good to not have the PR added Johnny, and that is you would get greater rewards.

if you have a BoM should that 10% show as PR, no why should this? if i have an MgS which is pretty close to AMF should that be PR, no? then why a ToE

as you say, there is no good reason to equip an oversized ToE to an extremely small character.
the game shouldn't give a good reason to do so either, and the tattoo is likely more than powerful enough for the PR gain at higher levels.
i also don't expect a much more complex growth equation to be put in place so that 1 pr characters can have huge ToEs.
ToJ seems to get weaker as PRs go higher, but the PR gain doesn't shrink.
All you seem to point out is that one strategy is really bad and pointless which suggests it probably shouldn't be used.

That is an excellent point at the low-end of the spectrum. But I am not sure how Jonathan can balance this any other way. While familiar-based tattoos seem very strong at smaller PRs, the non-familiar tattoos take on more and more importance at higher PRs, because they are augmenting and protecting the minion itself. That offers flexibility. Even if at higher levels I want my ToJ to train more STR, I cannot control that. With your ToA, you can.

As far as the scoring ladder, etc, I do think you point out an interesting issue. Large ToEs and ToAs are far less useful in jump-starting a low character as a familiar-based tattoo would be. Because of recent changes, though, ALL tattoos are far less useful for jump-starting low characters, so maybe this is not such a huge issue in Jonathan's eyes.

Gosh I hope thats not what I am pointing out, I am trying to say these tats are being penalized when by their very nature they accomplish the goal of needing them as long term strat additions instead of instant death dealers.

That's true enough. I wouldn't say no to higher rewards! But I don't see it as a penalty. The ToE is definitely a bonus to my strat - even if your character can walk all over me!

I guess my main reason for not objecting is that there should be some sort of equality between tattoos. Otherwise people whose pr was increased by their ToJ/ToI/TOF et al would be complaining very loudly about the players with ToE/ToA's. =)

After we Train and go back to the home page with Standard opponents in the list, it refreshes with people at our PR, well, i lose just about every fight with people at my "PR"...mainly cuz they have a ToJ and i use ToA...I would like the V-PR to be calculated differently for minion Tattoos compared to Stat Tattoos.

I support what megamanV said ... if all the huge strength and dex adding gears dont add to the PR ..y should the ToE/ToA do the same .. it makes the tattoos much less usefull than other gears ... i think something must be done in this regard .. atleast an X level ToE/ToA should increase your PR by much less than an X level ToJ/ToF...

It's true enough that in theory the armours with bonuses could be seen as potential additions to pr, but they've not been (re)designed to be almost permanent additions to your character.