Please Critique my 4T Strat (in General)
The character is Don Kixothe.
I know a 4T strat is difficult and expensive. That's the challenge that I enjoy :) I've already invested in another Adamantite to be placed on Dulcinea. All the other usual heavy tank gear will be acquired eventually to get ac up.
What I would enjoy is a critique on the strategy's basic set-up. Obviously, I am not relying on enchantments like AS, GA, VA, GS, Haste, so for a 4T character, it's "different" :). Thanks.
It'll suffer from the xp split later on, as only the ToA tank in the back will be able to hit most other tanks. The MgS make up for the lack of hp on the other tanks, so it'll still do good against most mage teams.. I dunno how the damage split + ??% reduction will do against the larger FBs/CoCs though. Final Analysis: Seems rather good against mage teams and most tanks currently, but later on tanks who are still 1M or have some E help (Haste/GS/AS/VA) will hurt ya.
April 5 2005 3:38 PM EDT
I agree with Nightmare. Seems like dex gaps are going to be a killer to this strategy.
April 5 2005 3:41 PM EDT
Dex gaps might not be an issue if you get DBs and have massive + on your weapons. Just drop like 3-400 USD into items and you'll be fine.
DBs are almost an essential for single tanks, just to stop those massive + weapons.. so most hits will be dex hits, with an occasional +-based hit.
It's an interesting concept to grasp--that a 4T team would be 'weak' compared to a single tank due to a dex disparity. My ToA is only 80k. Maybe a much larger ToA would help.
April 5 2005 3:53 PM EDT
This may be a naive newbie question -- but why are you training individual stats rather than haste/giant strength/ablative shield? Wouldn't having minions cast those instead of having stats trained be much more efficient? There's probably a multiplier you can take advantage of there...
ok.. since you wanted critique:
the strat is far,far,far too tough to handle moneywise
Good question Mags. The strategy is designed to be resistant to any dispel magic. But on the other hand, a single tank would likey not be using that spell. Ultimately, my toughest opponent will probably be a single tank, as suggested above.
Barron - Think about it... you are getting a bit more than 1/4 of the total xp your team gets on your big tank. Your ToA would make up some of the slack, but not against other ToA tanks (who are also growing).
Mags - If he did that, he'd have to remove the MgS on the little tanks, and thusly be more vulnerable to mages. Maybe that is an idea Barron can use in the future if/when mages become less prevalent.
April 5 2005 4:00 PM EDT
Why not begin training the strats mentioned by Mags now?
I can see you having troubles vs. CoBF chars, GA and strong tanks
hmm...would adding dex and haste to the first 2 minions make you all feel better? ;)
still don't make up for your huge HP disadvantage
April 5 2005 4:03 PM EDT
Agreed re: both single tanks being a problem, and Dispel Magic. You'll be sinking large amounts of points into those spells, probably even beyond what dispel magic could handle.
There's just very little dispel magic out there, really, as compared to AMF. That may change with time, but so can your strategy, and the unlearn cost is relatively cheap for those enchants.
I think using those spells would make you much stronger. If you do that, I'd trade in your ToA for a Jigorokano -- can you imagine 5 minions, including a ToJ, each with GS/Haste/Ablative? Yum. It'd be abandoning one tough guy for the strength of the multiplier.
actually Moose, after the initial investment on all the gear (hehe ouch.), the ToA tank could get most of the funding, with the little tanks getting by with x30-40 weapons.. they're just extra damage against mages :)
April 5 2005 4:04 PM EDT
get rid of compounds and arch on first two tanks...get axbow and exbow...use arch for haste
April 5 2005 4:04 PM EDT
actually two axbows would be nice against single tanks
April 5 2005 4:06 PM EDT
"Mags - If he did that, he'd have to remove the MgS on the little tanks, and thusly be more vulnerable to mages. Maybe that is an idea Barron can use in the future if/when mages become less prevalent."
True, Nightmare. Part of me wonders how vulnerable to mages he'll be in the first place though, with such wide dispersal of fireball/CoC damage, many minions to spread out Decay, and a ToJ with huge stats and endurance to boot. Maybe have one minion for each spell:
ToJ + AMF
Also, if he could afford it, making each character an archer would probably shred mages for relatively little XP commitment. Especially with seekers. Shred.
But the little tanks would have a hard time hitting the single tank even if they had axbows, right? I figure the little tanks would wipe out the mages in a team--or try to anyway.
April 5 2005 4:09 PM EDT
but if they had axbows and major Haste....
Deifeln - The axbow wielding enchanter-tanks would rarely hit the single tanks, so there's no real need to splurge on rare ranged weapons.
Mags - If he dropped the ToA for a ToJ, he'd have a whole new set of problems. The slightly enhanced Jig familiar would be less able to deal with the single tank problem, and the big tank in the back would have approx 48k less STR/DEX, and wouldn't really be able to, again, deal with tanks.
April 5 2005 4:10 PM EDT
"But the little tanks would have a hard time hitting the single tank even if they had axbows, right? I figure the little tanks would wipe out the mages in a team--or try to anyway."
Single tanks wil be the bane of your existence anyway. Huge + and NW on your weapons is the best answer, but you might just not have an answer against one strategy. That isn't too bad in exchange for such a rock/paper/scissors game. You've got a scissors.
To add spells to my first 3 minions, I'd have to abandon the MgS (3) and the CoBF. Is that reasonable to do?
April 5 2005 4:11 PM EDT
"Mags - If he dropped the ToA for a ToJ, he'd have a whole new set of problems. The slightly enhanced Jig familiar would be less able to deal with the single tank problem, and the big tank in the back would have approx 48k less STR/DEX, and wouldn't really be able to, again, deal with tanks."
In the long run he won't be able to deal with it anyway. There's just no way a 4T team can match the dex of a 1T team in the long-run. Mitigate weaknesses, but not to the compromise or expense of your strengths.
hmm.. oo. I didn't see that CoBF the first time I looked. Thats a huge weapon, but only if you can get that 3rd minion's HP up around 40-50k+, otherwise he won't survive through ranged to do his job. Also, if you did remove everything, you'd need some AMF to dull the pain.
April 5 2005 4:15 PM EDT
"To add spells to my first 3 minions, I'd have to abandon the MgS (3) and the CoBF. Is that reasonable to do?"
I honestly don't know or remember the numbers, but I seem to recall that the breakpoint for whether AS/Haste were worth it was 3+ minions. It'd be roughly 2.5x more efficient(if you have a ToJ) to train these spells rather than the stats. The higher HP from that alone will compensate you for the lost magic resistance and then some.
April 5 2005 4:15 PM EDT
Actually 4 Axbows would be best - the DX gap will be the big problem. Getting 8 (or more) hits against a big DX would help a lot. Of course, trying to get hits on a big DX to begin with will be hard, especially if your opponent has DB's equipped.
Instead of trying to learn enough DX and ST on each of your characters to be effective, why not learn a big EC to bring everyone down to your level. That's not affected by DM.
GA will be a big problem. A single AMF with, at best 1/8th of your XP trained in it will not be very effective.
I would suggest you take Mags' suggestion and go the traditional Haste/GS/AS route and just ignore characters with DM. Yeah, you'll get farmed but just about any strat can get farmed by someone.
I'm thinking that against a single tank, a big CoBF on the 3rd minion along with high ac and DBs with high + on weapons, especially on my ToA tank, would help me about quite a bit.
4 archers and buying BA.. unless you plan to spend USD daily on the game, it is not possible moneywise
April 5 2005 4:20 PM EDT
Almuric is 100% right regarding GA being a problem. GA will eat you alive no matter what. I forgot about that.
I don't know how EC works. If it takes a fixed amount away from each enemy minion then it makes sense for 1T vs. 4T, but not for 4T vs. 1T. I'm not sure. I'd still take advantage of the inherent multipliers in Haste/GS/AS because that's primarily what this format has going for it.
In regards to the EC thing, check out A Melon Named Harold... he's got all four minions doing EC, drops me down like 75k.. interesting idea, but seems like it would be a bit much, and very vulnerable to mages (not a good idea with trends as they are now)
This character won't have as big a problem with GA, as he has 2 fully equipped minions and one mostly equipped. He can have enough AC to dull GA to a small thud.
about the GA thing.. I'm quite sure that Hypno beats don kix, with only GA returns.. any char with low HP and all minions attacking is weak to GA.
(tested fighting don k. without my CoC mage, and without CoBF.. didn't want to ruin my ToS, so it stayed on, but GA made it's work.)
Right now the AMF is essential, but it may be less necessary later on, especially if the archers start throwing seekers. I might be able to switch the AMF for EC down the road.
yeah, with HP that low GA will hurt,and it'll take awhile to raise it up to acceptable levels (30k+ 'cross the little dudes), but the best AC on that team right now is only ~130. Give it another mil into the first Adam, and that second Adam up to +50 or so, and it'll make a world of difference.
That AC will just be another cash trap
hehe, he did say he understood it would be "difficult and expensive" :-P
April 5 2005 5:15 PM EDT
The obvious responses to a 4T set-up have been said - expensive, weaker tanks than single minions. But that aside, and it looks like this is what you are doing - the thing to do is to make half the team dedicated to ranged and half to melee. This immediately cures some of the networth problem. Ploughing money into the archers' bows, and into the other two's melee weapons means you don't have to worry so much about the strength of the archers melee and the melee tank's ranged.
It'll be interesting to see how well this fares. Good Luck! =)
Interesting. Well, I just removed the MgS from the top 2 minions, and it made little differece in my fights. I want to keep the CoBF on the 3rd minion. So, if I were to add 2 spells.... Haste and AS? or Haste and GS? or Haste and EC? or Haste and Haste? :) I don't think GA would be useful given my AC levels eventually. Thanks all for your comments.
Probably Haste and AS for now.. see how that runs, and see how it runs
April 5 2005 5:22 PM EDT
Depends on how much you want to rely on the last minion versus the team as a whole, but I think I'd always vote AS/Haste if I had to pick any two. Given the research on relative DX vs. absolute DX earlier, even 1/4 or 1/2 the DX of a single tank should greatly reduce the DX hits. The longer you can protect the bloodlust the better.
I'm not surprised the MgS made little difference -- I was really disappointed when I finally rented one to try it out. They're not nearly as great as I hoped.
why not add an average VA?
Simply because of its enchantment type.. the AS means better odds against the whole of CB, and haste makes the primary weakness easier to deal with.
VA does not cost much at all.. AS costs a lot.
I'll take it one step further. What about VA and EC?
I suppose I can see EC being as good/better than Haste, but unless you are sticking that VA on your last minion or the EC minion, it isn't going to do as much as AS. You've already got a morg giving you a .2 VA on the big guy, and a serious deficit in HP all around.
EC and Haste would yield and equivalent result, right? Either way it corrects a dex gap. But EC is immune to DM, and I think the cost is about the same.
I have .2 VA on my last 2 minions, which are going to do the most physical damage, with the 1st 2 dieing earlier in ranged or melee. So AS and EC seem reasonable. But, do I unlearn HP on the 1st 2 minions to add AS to one and EC to the other?
it's a hard call.. Archery and one physical stat will probably need to be swapped into the Enchant of choice... it boils down to either HP or DEX. Bear with me :) If you use their HP, you are getting a smaller amount of hp on each of the first two, and a growing amount added to the last two. You'd have an easier time hitting the lesser tanks in 2 and 3 minion teams, but they become less effective at protecting the CoBF tank and ToA tank. If you unlearn dex, you will have the same situation with the first two guys that you have now, they are both going to miss against other single tanks, but possibly hitting other 4M teams' tanks, and still hitting as hard/often against mages. That also gives all 4 minions a growing HP with the AS. It basically boils down to which is more important to you (personally, I'd probably drop the dex and let that CoBF do its job :-P).
I don't think I can unlearn dex on the 1st 2 minions and then add EC or AS. That would leave those 2 without dex and they'd never hit anything except for a mage. Did you mean unlearn dex and add Haste to one and AS to the other?
erm yeah, I was talking about it in those terms :-p If you go with EC, then I guess HP would be the only stat worth dropping. If you go with Haste, refer above :-D
I want to thank everyone for their input and great suggestions and constructive criticism. You can look at the new improved Don Kixothe.
To help with the Dex gap and the low Hp issues, I untrained Archer on the top 2 minions and added Haste to one and AS to the other. Both enchantments are small now, but as I train I will pump up strength and the enchantment, thereby improving all the tanks. I changed the compounds for heavy crossbows. The CoBF and ToA tanks are unchanged. Now I'm happier. :)
April 5 2005 7:17 PM EDT
EC is more diluted with respect to dex than haste is, because it also lowers opponents strength... so you can choose to either lower X strength and X dex, or you can raise your dex by more than X...
I also use the 4 tank strat, but I went for enchanter tanks. It sort of works, but I;m not going to put to0 much of my life into CB ;)
Lowering the strength of the most meaningful opponent is accomplished with the exbow. So I think that my best use of experience was to up my dex as much as possible with haste.
April 6 2005 2:34 AM EDT
if i were u barron, heres what i would do...
first minion...ALL haste
second minion 1/2 hp 1/2 st (put archery on him)
third (same as second) [no dex on these guys...]
HEAVY armor on second and third...corn on first
last minion...all hp, archery and TOA
1) nothing (haste mage)
2) ax bow
4) elb massive with seekers...
last guy kills mages, other two tanks act as an EC then u have a giant Haste to brdge the dex gap! plus with not training dex on ur guys, u can have the highest penalty armor, and haste will cover it, this lets u put it into st and hp. archery will be big too, cause the more u hit them, the weaker their tanks are...and for the 4th tank..the more dead their mages are :D i might put some ST on the 4th minion as well, to really kill the mages good and dead....maybe a small amf on the haste guy also...
uh, that kind of removes the "4T" part of the strat..
IronGiant, that's a nice ETTT strat, but i'm kinda stuck on the notion of 4T. I've added Haste and AS as those were the biggest suggestions and my strat's greatest weakness. It will take a while for those enchantments to "kick in", but that's ok because for now it's working well against most other strats. Thanks again for the ideas, all.
OK one final thought. Any ideas on how I could get more VA on this team? It's a shame that I can't take advantage of full VA on a 4T team. I'm thinking that way down the road I can swap the AMF for VA, but I don't think it would work right now, but I'm not sure. Any thoughts about that?
April 6 2005 4:05 PM EDT
I found that VA was only worth the cost when I consistenly was hitting for 10K+ per hit in melee. Take that for what its worth.
Well my 4th minion Don has the 4th highest MPB in the game and consistently hits for 30+k. He's using a Morg that already has .2 VA, so I just don't know how much better having more VA would be...
with the AS kicking in, can't you use some of the HP on pancha for VA?
I wish, but he has a CoBF, so he cant train anything :/
/me is tired.. missing obvious things.. but how about don kix then?.. since you are going expensive tank team, wont you have seekers for the mages anyway?
I get where you're going. But would it be best to keep 'some' AMF on Don and add a little VA? Or would your just untrain the AMF and put it all in VA, and equip seekers?
Barron. Stick a base protection on Sancho.
Although hes got a CBF, the minimum effect for protection is 4. Even at a level of zero. CBF s don't negate Enchantments/Skills, just set them to zero.
You'd be getting a 4 protection for just the base 6K cost. :)
That's not a bad idea, but will the MgS negate the base protection?
I think like the CBF it'll only set it to zero, so it'll still give the base 4 protection. But I'm not sure... :(
From one of my farms equipping a MgS;
"Protection: 0/1,000 (4)"
So it looks like it does! ;) I'll go burn a BA to check.
Sorry for triple post.
From first fight;
"Origin cast Protection on all friendly Minions (4)"
Cool! Thanks for the info GL.
Now I'm wrestling with either adding some VA to Don, or unlearning AMF and splitting the resulting 450k experience between VA and AMF. But I hate unlearning with a vengeance :(
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