Returning to attack order (in General)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 17 2005 6:56 AM EDT

Hi all, going back to a thread a while ago about attacks being simultaneous, I noted that I've seen Tal killed in a round (usually by AMF) where my opponent hasn't attacked.

This shouldn't occur if attacker were simultaneous (my opponent wouldn't need to attack me only if I went first and there when it got to his 'turn' he had no target) and it was suggested that my opponent still attacks, but that Jon just removed the fight entry as it was, in essence redundant.

This could be easily checked by my HP s left after the fight.

I've just fought an opponent that put me in this situation;

Post-battle stats
Minion EXP HP ST DX AC DI Ammo
Talhearn 2,877 -36,668 20 20 6 185,443

Talhearn Alucard
Talhearn cast Dispel Magic on all enemy Minions (45,725)
Talhearn cast Protection on all friendly Minions (4)
Alucard cast Antimagic Field on Talhearn (0.33)
Alucard cast Guardian Angel on all friendly Minions (?)

enchantment effects that cannot be determined before combat are displayed as '?'

Ranged Combat

(Round 1)

Talhearn takes damage from his own Fireball (28485)!
Talhearn's Fireball hit Alucard [91924]
Alucard's Guardian Angel smote Talhearn (16363)
Alucard shot Talhearn with Hellfire [44479]
Alucard shot Talhearn with Hellfire [63768]

(Round 2)

Talhearn takes damage from his own Fireball (32554)!
Talhearn's Fireball hit Alucard [93519]
Alucard's Guardian Angel smote Talhearn (16419)

R.I.P. Talhearn

Total damage done to me was 202,068. I have 165,400 HP which leaves me with exactly the -36,668 shown in the post battle stats.

Alucard, with archery, didn't attack me in the second round.

The only way this could have happened is if fights record the attacker attacking first in a round.


QBJohnnywas June 17 2005 7:01 AM EDT

Enchantment come before attacks right? Alucard's killing blow was the GA attack. No need for him to fire his bow then maybe? He's just standing there gloating at you GL...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 17 2005 7:02 AM EDT

His GA would only damage due to my attack.

Both my FB and his Bow should attack at the same time.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 17 2005 7:05 AM EDT

Oh, and the GA wasn't the killing blow, it only did 16,419, I would have already been at -20,249 from the AMF return (32,554).

But again, the AMF should damage me at the same time my FB hits him *and* his bow strikes me...

QBJohnnywas June 17 2005 7:06 AM EDT

That's true - soz not enough sleep...

Maybe he did fire but as you had dropped dead the arrows just went above your head? I've seen some weird fight results lately too. Fighting against single FB mages - I've killed them in one round and the only damage taken was from their AMF. No attack from them at all. Which would seriously point to attacker first in the fight order rather than simultaneous....

Manta June 17 2005 9:33 AM EDT

The algorithm is quite simple: the attacker goes first, then it receives all the "backslash" damage (AMF, GA, ToBF...), then the defender attacks.
If the backslash damage kills the first attacker, the defender ignores him.

If someone has some evidence against this interpretation of the facts, please tell us.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 17 2005 9:35 AM EDT

Manta, that's fine, but then attack rounds are *not* simultaneous, as has been stated.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 17 2005 9:37 AM EDT

From Help/Battles;

"The attacker and the defender are given equal chances of winning; all Minions are considered to attack simultaneously"

Manta June 17 2005 9:37 AM EDT

As I said in another post on this same subject, the help file is wrong.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 17 2005 9:39 AM EDT

:) I'm sure I remember Jon posting that attacks were simultaneous. Anyone up for some forum digging?

QBsutekh137 June 17 2005 9:54 AM EDT

You sure Alucard's Archery is at 100%? Maybe this was a rare case where he didn't fire in the second round? You would know by looking at other battles, as it probably ends up this way fairly often?

Also, attacks might be "simultaneous if necessary". Alucard didn't attack because you were already dead.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 17 2005 10:03 AM EDT

>_< OK... It could be an archery less than 100% I was almost caught out by that before I posted (was beaten in the same fashion by another team, with no archery...)

If it really was "simultaneous if necessary" then in the least, I've been cheated out of making my opponent use 2/3 arrows... ;)

Would "simultaneous if necessary" also work with multi targetting attacks? Or is this just a "One team totally dead, so fight stops where it is" kind of thing?

Manta June 17 2005 10:09 AM EDT

No, Chet, there is definetly a difference between attacker and defender.
It has been noted for Ax/Exbow drains (where the attackers drain becomes effective in the same round, the defender's one from the following round), AMF and ToBF backslash, and other effects.
While it is possible that Alucard's archery was insufficient, the most likely explanation is that he did not attack an attacking minion killed by GA.
The facts I have seen until now fits into the theory I explained above: attacker goes first, defender second, backslash damage on the attacker takes effect _before_ the defender counter-attacks.

Again, if there is some contradicting evidence, please do tell us.
At least, GL will not make still another thread about attack order.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 17 2005 10:13 AM EDT

Hey! :P

QBsutekh137 June 17 2005 10:25 AM EDT

I already told him it gives me headaches. *smile* Better than just a bunch of FS/WTB posts though!!!!!

Phaete June 17 2005 10:51 AM EDT

There are several precedences.
VA and resurrection
VA and decay
AMF and DD

Hypothetically, if all attack at the same time, their attacks are based on their stats unchanged by this round.

Then the weapons/spells would have their effect once all attacks are done.

This would require the all effects to be stored temporarily, before they are applied.

My best guess is that most effects are calculated directly, as it would not change much to the fight result, but it seems there are exceptions.
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