Understanding UC (in General)
Hi all, I've got some questions about the UC skill, mainly how it interacts with UC items, that I can't find the answers for.
The basics of the skill;
When first trained, UC is 50(0). This make UC a [x0] (+0) melee weapon. UC also grants 1/3 its level as Evasion.
So training UC to XXXX (90) yields a [x90] (+90) weapon, and gives +30 Evasion.
Helms Gauntlets give 1.5 times their Enchantment points as a plus to any trained UC effect. Adding a +10 HG to a UC of (90) gives a final UC of (105). This increase does not effect the Evasion (which remains at +30).
A Combat Gi gives a flat + (10) to the UC effect, so adding one to the above would give a final effect of (115).
Combat Gi's have a second property, they add an additional amount of Evasion equal to the natural Evasion given by the UC skill (which is not increased by any items). So in this case, the Gi would add another +30 Evasion.
My main question is, with the recent change to how Evasion stacks, what do both the natural Evasion from the UC skill and the Evasion given from a Combat Gi count as? I would assume UC granted Evasion counts as skill Evasion, but does that given by the Gi?
In the numbers given above, do I have +60 evasion, or (as the changelog example shows) 30+30 = 39?
If so, this really reduces the usefulness of a Combat Gi.
Next, how does a pair of Displacement Boots fit into this? As item based Evasion they would stack linearly with the bonus from the Gi, if the Gi is classed as item, not skill Evasion.
Without being able to see the total Evasion score, I can't think of any way of working this out.
My second question is, when I add a Gi to base UC it only adds +9, taking the UC skill to: 10,164/50 (9)
Do the UC items actually add directly to the effect, or do they add an xp amount to the level, which might not boost the effect by the currently listed amount? At base, a Gi adds 10,114 to the level of UC, at XXXX (90) would it only add 10,114, which might not even take you to (91)?
Lastly, if the items do add directly, and the level is just adjusted to show what it should be (so training UC naturally to 10,164 would give an effect of (9), thus showing this on the screen), is this level increase effected by + dexterity armour, which would (like other skills) increase the naturally trained xp?
A question I left off...
UC Evasion is doubled in Ranged rounds.
But what is UC Evasion? Just the natural evasion granted by training UC? Or does it include the Bonus given by a Combat Gi?
Or for anyone that's trained UC, is the total evasion doubled for ranged? Skill, Gi and DBs?
That would be a lot...
July 5 2005 8:31 AM EDT
My take on it is very skewed due to the fact that Brock has a high DX, but most tanks without a ToA never touch me. Dudemus' character grasshopper usually ends up taking 37 or so shots at me and never hitting once.
However, I'm usually dominated by those with a ToA or mages. DBs haven't worked that well for me in the past, but I recently acquired a pair and am experimenting with getting them as pumped up as I can before dying of boredom and then testing my results.
GL, if there are any tests you'd like me to run to confirm/deny any of your theories, just send me a CM.
Brandon's really helped me out with some info from the King of UC, Brock, and It's helped me up a little part.
The UC items add their bonus to the effect (number in the Parenthesis). They do this after and increase from + dexterity items. If you had, for example a UC of (20), and dex boosted that to (22), adding a Gi to would take UC to (32). The increase to the level is *not* fixed, so I assume it represents the natural xp level needed to take the skill to it's boosted effect.
I don't know why a Gi only adds +9 to a base UC, maybe it's a bug with UC starting at (0).
I don't think there is any way to test if the added Evasion from a Gi (or even UC itself) is classed as item or skill Evasion, Jon would you be adverse to giving us a little more information on this?
July 5 2005 1:16 PM EDT
Wow, thanks for putting this all together GentlemanLoser! I'm facing the same questions with Endeavor and it would help me a lot if I knew how these things actually work. Thank you too, BrandonLP, for experimenting with Brock Samson!
About the Evasion ... I don't have a clue. I've bought some DB's yesterday and I'm doing the same as Brandon: pumping their NW. He advised me to use EB's instead of DB's, but I figured the extra DEX percentage wouldn't mean much to me as my tank isn't as big as Brock's. A few extra points of Evasion will hopefully do more for me. I hope my DB's will at least make a difference, but for now I'm not seeing much.
The entire UC <-> Evasion-thing still remains a mystery to me ;p
Yeah, but Brandon is probably right.
My hunch is UC Evasion (at least) is skill evasion, which no longer stacks well with DB s.
The + Dex from a pair of EB s will notonly raise your dex to help vesus ToA tanks, but also raise your UC skill, possibly granting a point or two of evasion along the way as well.
*grumble* make skil and item evasion stack like it used to to combat the non fixed ToA pth bonus *grumble*
A good idea sugessted to me by Johnnywas would be to use a TBF (if they ever get boosted) instead of a Gi. You'll lose the Gi based Evasion, but gain 10 from the Tattoo, and the minus 10 to your UC weapon would be made up from the Melee splash.
But then you also wouldn't be able to use a EC for dex boosting...
July 5 2005 8:41 PM EDT
DX is an important part of the strat that I didn't figure out until recently. With just a bit more DX, I could farm Spid. That's why I'm more than interested in switching Brock over to an Axbow to help level the playing field.
One thing that I highly advise is if you're going to make a UC tank, go with at least a two minion team. I'm keeping Brock single minion no matter what, but I believe with a strong wall in front of Brock, or even the right mage build, would make a most impressive character.
July 5 2005 9:09 PM EDT
Brandon is correct :) As soon as all my forgers complete their jobs next week, Neji will be an impressively HIGH n/w UC tank + FF / DM combo. I am still pondering between MGS or BOM or no shield at all. Using a BOM could actually raise at least 20% STR and 20+ AC though
July 5 2005 9:21 PM EDT
NK, I'm struggling with the same decision. MgS is out of the question for me as one of Brock's main draws is his VA. I can end certain fights with double the max amount of HP I currently have. BoM drops my UC level down two points I believe. I honestly think the BoM might be worth it if upgraded to a high enough level where it took care of the missing damage from the lost UC.
I thought BoM s reduced UC by (5)?
BLP, The Gi on Brock adds a maximum of 16/17 Evasion (depending on how it's rounded) and the fixed +(10) UC bonus.
Do you think it would be worth trading that (and your cloak slot) for a ToA?
The Evasion and AC from items would be lost, any dex gained from a cloak would be made up by the tattoo, and although you lose [x10] from your UC weapon, the pth will be increased much more by the tat than the (+10) the Gi would give.
Plus there's some bonus strength.
July 6 2005 7:53 AM EDT
You should add the info to the WIKI (if you haven't already done so).
July 6 2005 8:35 AM EDT
GL, given some time when I return from my trip this weekend, I fully intend to test that. Losing the cloak shouldn't hurt me as the ToA will more than make up for the missing DX. I just have to make sure the damage is greater. ;)
July 6 2005 9:32 PM EDT
"DX is an important part of the strat that I didn't figure out until recently. With just a bit more DX, I could farm Spid. That's why I'm more than interested in switching Brock over to an Axbow to help level the playing field.
One thing that I highly advise is if you're going to make a UC tank, go with at least a two minion team. I'm keeping Brock single minion no matter what, but I believe with a strong wall in front of Brock, or even the right mage build, would make a most impressive character."
Bingo, except for not necessarily agreeing with the multi-minion. It's a tough question, since the biggest edge is being practically unhittable with a massive DX and evasion. This is watered down dramatically when you add a second minion. I'm really curious to see how Neji's character does, and quite excited.
FYI, even when ToA's gave more DX and to_hit than they do today, it was still worse than the Gi/Cloak combo. Brock's equipment(besides the Exbow which should be an Axbow) choices are optimal from what I could determine from a bunch of different pairs of underwear.
One additional piece of information.
Unlike DD spells, equipping a weapon will use that weapon in melee instead of your UC skill...
Also, the 1.5 bonus from HG s are rounded up. +9 gives +14 to UC. So it's best to upgrade these to odd values.
GA really hurts. I'm using AMF, so no DM to reduce it.
That makes VA a must, it's great versus people without GA (some fights I end with more health than I started with..) and works to lessen/cancel the damage done by GA.
I've got hardly any AC because of my Tattoo, so VA is my only defense in this.
For this reason alone, I'm not going to use a ranged weapon. If I do too much damage, I kill myself through GA.
I don't mind others attacking me in ranged, i'm hard to hit by tanks, and the larger my AMF grows, the less I'll take from FB/MM.
July 9 2005 7:50 PM EDT
I was just thinking. Won't it be better to hire another minion and train the AMF and VA on it? Then you'll get slightly more exp for both and the UC minion can concentrate on the str, dex, hp and UC. Now you are training all 5 on one minion and is dilluting the spells and physical stats.
Yeah, that would probably be better. But I'm loathe to get another minion.. :(
July 10 2005 7:18 AM EDT
The two-minion idea has been brought up before and I'm already using it on Endeavor since March. I too use AMF on that enchanter, and have tested VA, Haste and AS. Oh, and I've tried to just use a huge AMF. My findings were that in my particular strat, AS was best. Both Haste and VA do only the UC-tank good. That's fine, but with AS I make every minion (including my Fire Familiar) harder to kill. With more HP, GA becomes less of a bother as well. Of course AS can be fizzled by DM, but hey, so can VA and Haste.
So I'd say, Talhearn should get a second minion with AMF and AS! Oh and while you're at it, equip a FF on him and you've copied my strat. =)
Oh and is an EC and EB's that much better than a SC and DB's? The extra DX-percentages might indeed work out better and I'm wondering whether I should sell the SC/DB's or not. More AC and more Evasion versus more DX (which gives more UC and thus more Evasion). Am I getting this right?
*is quite curious to see NK's Neji fully customized for UC*
July 10 2005 11:20 AM EDT
Perhaps I'm going about this in the wrong manner, but my AMF is -just- high enough to stop and reduce base Decay to nearly nothing. On a single minion, there's just too much of an exp spread to keep AMF at a healthy size.
How do you deal with large CoC s Brandon? If only MgS didn't lower UC! (Or negate enchantments...)
July 10 2005 2:33 PM EDT
That's one area I try to stray away from (although ELB with Seekers would solve the problem). Too many people try to make strats that can counter and work against everything. Brock seems to excel against tank strats, therefore, I generally only keep those types on my fightlist.
DD Spell => Weapon => UC.
Train UC as a skill and equip a weapon, and you'll use the weapon instead of hitting with your fists.
Train a DD spell as well, and you'll cast that, even in melee, without hitting with your fists.
July 13 2005 11:03 AM EDT
well I would like to announce that the UC strat that I was hoping to work is a failure :)
My fight list has dwindled to almost nothing and I seriously don't know how to fix this mess. Oh well, I guess I will just stick to this for a while..
Just for the record:
Unarmed Combat: 698,109/191,645 (74) can only do a max of 35k against minions with tiny or no AC at all. And GA will rip you off :) So kids at home, don't ever ever try this
July 13 2005 11:42 AM EDT
GA is the reason why brock has VA.
It's not good damage...
I'm at Unarmed Combat: 669,628/325,738 (73) with 40K less strength and one less "x" on my weapon, and do about 30K damage per hit.
So for another 30K worth of xp into UC and 40K worth into Str, I get to do another 5K damage!
70K worth of xp into a DD spell would get me around a 35K damage increase.
But hey, I'm using a weapon, so I can make that up with NW...
Oh no, wait, I can't!
Stop training UC and start training intrinsics. I'm a believer in UC but I think it needs to be treated like any other skill. It shouldn't be trained equally with HP, ST, or DX. Build up your ST and DX, then add a few points into UC. So you won't have a +70 weapon.... but you'll be doing much more damage (I think... :) )
July 13 2005 2:02 PM EDT
ST is nearly useless. I pumped it for awhile and it did nearly nothing. DX, DX, DX... that's the key. I'm sure of it. ;)
Brandons right. I dropped my intrinsic Str (180K + item bonuses) and lost maybe 10K damage per hit. (after bumping my UC weapon with that xp, I gained maybe 10-13 levels)
180K + Str for 10K damage.. Ugg... That would give ~90K damage in a DD spell.
July 13 2005 8:15 PM EDT
"ST is nearly useless."
This is true in a general sense, making it implicitly true of UC. I wish the progression of ST had been changed rather than or in addition to NW's direct effects on damage, but it wasn't meant to be.
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