TBF and ToE comparison (in General)

Arorrr July 10 2005 11:35 PM EDT

Same strat AMF,AS/W/CoC+TBF and retatoed to ToE. With the same items and setup and 15K less level on the ToE, I doubled the favorite fight list, many above the ToF setup score. Many of them are ToF/FB team and some ToA teams.

Conclusion: same as before. TBF is totally underpowered. It supposes to be against ToF/FB and yet ToE is superior. How contradicting.

[T]Vestax July 11 2005 2:41 AM EDT

This will always be the case when you team is based around using ToBF to protect you from FB. The only thing that tat has over ToE is the backlash damage and +10 evasion.

Now I know you think your strat uses these to it's advantage, but it doesn't in any way. The ToBF damage is the last thing to come in your strat since it only would happen once every other member of your team is dead and your CoC mage is already weakened by ranged attacks and magic spells, which don't get the backlash. The ToBF should go on the person who gets the most melee damage not the one who get's the least.

Then again, I could be wrong and you had that tattoo on the wall, which would be better, except only a high dex wall/meat shield could get those attacks down to singles so the damage would be maxed out. That and you need major mage stopping power since DD attacks burn your walls HP with no benefit. If you don't do this then the ToE will ALWAYS be the better choice.

However, I will grant you that if it only, hypothetically, becomes more powerful then a ToE on only one specific and rare type of minion, then I guess that counts as underpowered.

It took me a day or so to make myself admit that your analysis of my strat suggestion was correct. But, I still think it was the only strat actually centered on the ToBF while others kept saying "to cut the FB damage". I made a fix if you want to dare try it. Take my suggestion from that old post and see how it looks when you add in a elbow seeker archer in front of the BL tank. Even with the archery nerf it should still be a promising strat.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 11 2005 3:18 AM EDT

What minion is the TBF aimed at?

Mages: Get much more of a benefit from a ToE, AMF backlash reduction, more damage reduction, to all types of damage.

Walls: Lowers AC a lot, by removing the Bodt and Cloak slot. Also removes the ability to use a MgS, which when enchanted gives more of a protection versus FB, MM and CoC. Not just FB.

Tanks: Get much more benefit from a ToA. Non fixed pth compared to a static +10 Evasion.

Enchaters: The only tattoos that are worth using on enchanters (especially the 20 HP variety) are familiar summoning ones. As of yet, there are no Tattoos that increase cast enchantments, so nothing else would help them.

Who are TBF s aimed at?

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] July 11 2005 6:57 AM EDT

"Base AC 0.
Damages melee attackers that hit, with fire. (similar to Guardian Angel)
Protects against fire.
Grants Evasion.
Cannot be equipped at same time as cloak, body armor, and power shield.
Also referred to as a TBF."

Wow, perfect for me.

GL, it's great for my tank so I wouldn't say ToA helps all tanks more.
ST being weighted heavily to the low end, the only benefit most people will see from the ToAs (I'm talking past 1mil PR here) is from it's DX. I really suspect this to eventually be seen as a great item.

I recall testing to see if ST really was so heavily weighted to the low end when I had a big character, 100k ST up to 200k and I saw only a slight difference in damage being dealt. So really, you are only gaining maybe 60% of what the ToA originally has to offer (50% from DX, but only about 10% from ST because you really get nothing from it). And that's not even considering that once you have about 1k DX, you will get no bonus from a higher one against mages.

Whereas a TBF gives you 100% of what it has to offer, all the time, not just early on. It damaging your opponents who attack with melee weapons will always be very useful. Also the fire protection is a huge bonus and always will be.

I fully encourage people with large tanks to consider making the switch to TBFs, it will likely pay off in the long run. Just remember, if it works out, make sure to thank me. If it doesn't work, I'll deny I ever suggested it. ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 11 2005 7:21 AM EDT

:) MrC, you seem to be missing the ToA's growing pth per level as well.

Which far outweighs a fixed +10 Evasion (which doesn't even stack with the skill... - But does with DB's).

The Damage dealt is around 1/10th of it's level, (I'd have to check a few old posts to be sure) and the FB damage absorbed is slightly more than that.

Even taking into account it's very weak and really should be buffed, what type of minion would use a tattoo that helps to not being hit (with Evasion now reducing Dex cth if greater than pth), while dealing damage on being hit?

With UC, DB and dexterity boosted by a ToA I regularily get rounds in which I'm not hit by opposing tanks. If I switched to a TBF (and re jigged my stats to keep my Dex up) I'd be losing the returned damage on all the rounds I totally dodge.

If I'm using a TBF for it's Evasion, then using a ToA for just it's increase to Dex gives me better defence.

As for low Str and ToA's, if I was sure I'm going to stick with one, I'd untrain all my natural Str and just rely on the str granted by my ToA (item wise, both a blessing and a curse, I'd get no benefit from str boosting items, but then I wouldn't need to use them, which will either lower my PR, or allow me to use other items - where possible). Being able to cut out xp expenditure for a whole stat on a tank is a great avenue!

As for providing it's abilities 100% of the time, it's give and take. A ToA provides nothing versus mages/Enchanters when you have enough dexterity (40-100?) to get doubles hits every round.

While a TBF provides no use of it's damage splash or +10 Evasion versus Mages, no use of it's reduction verus MM/CoC/Decay.

As suggested in a contest thread (I think by Sefton) you get the most out of your TBF by using it to absorb 'friendly' FB splash damage (Which is already reduced to a fifth) by using it on another minion coupled with a FB mage.

QBJohnnywas July 11 2005 7:26 AM EDT

If you wanted to make the TBF useful you'd need to ensure the wearer lasted to melee. How about changing it's evasion properties - maybe doubling them in ranged, lessening them during melee? That wouldn't be an 'overpowered' change and would make it more attractive to a lot of people. And then, just to please GL, change the way evasion the skill interacts with item evasion..... =)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 11 2005 7:27 AM EDT

For a comparison, my 500K FB was doing ~200K to a single target.

My ~200K TBF ( I know it's not the largest in the game, but by no means small...) was stopping a whopping 25K damage.

It's FB reduction (in it's current state) is by no means a huge bonus.

But all this is moot if it get's boosted this change month!

Stopping FB, an increasing Evasion and a Melee splash that doesn't tickle makes a good tattoo.

I still don't see who it's aimed at though. :(

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 11 2005 7:39 AM EDT

"And then, just to please GL, change the way evasion the skill interacts with item evasion..... =)"

Oh yeah!!

IIRC, DB s were changed to grant evasion because of the RD/Spid battles, and there being no way to counter massive pth. Dexterity could be left at zero and the weapon would still hit 2/3 times per round.

With an upgrade cost equal to the cheapest melee weapon pth, this was ballanced. Apart from the fact training the skill could give around an extra +20 to evasion.

So if things stayed like this, I could understand why the stacking of skill and item evasion was changed. Especially with UC evasion now being doubled in ranged.

But, ToA pth bonus changed this.

Unless something has dramatically changed with the Evaison skill, getting over 20/30 (maybe it was even as high as 50?) is nearly impossible.

Weapon pth is cancelled by DB s.

This leaves the Evasion Skill as the only way to counter the now non fixed pth bonus from a ToA.

But as skill no longer stacks with item, if you have a DB high enough to counter your opponents weapon pth, there is no way of lowering the ToA pth.

If the largest ToA s give +50 atm, won't we get to the same situation as 'before' the CB1 DB change where people with ToA s won't need to train dexterity (ignore the ToA actually gives dex..) as they'll hit at least once a round from ToA pth only, which no one can stop?
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