I think a cool change would be if clans had salaries (in General)

Starkadhr Gudbrande July 26 2005 9:58 PM EDT

I don't know how many people are playing this game, but it seems to me like there should be more people joining clans. It seems to me like maybe the incentive is too small. I know there is a bonus for the top clans, but what about those lower down on the list who don't have 400K MPR Characters. Most of the upper clans have a closed or severely moderated policy and only the top 10 or 20 clans really benefit. The lower clans don't get anything and many of them disband or members just quit. Plus, the higher clans "farm" the lower ones to stay on top and further decimate the lower clans even the ones who might have had potentil otherwise. What if there was some sort of subsidy. A bonus even for lower clans. Each clan could have a salary. Each member would get a certain % of the clan salary based on the clan points they earn. For instance, #1 gets 40%, #2 gets 25%, #3 gets 20%, #4 gets 15%. If you have more members it could shift a little with #1 getting say 35% and so on. If you score negative or just don't make any points, then you don't get paid that day (because you didn't work :)

Now for the subsidy part. It could be a little bit like taxes. Higher clans would have higher salaries, but they would have to pay a clan fee (or taxes if you will). Lower clans would pay lower fees and their salaries would be subsidised by the higher taxes of the top clans. This way, every clan would get a salary. In the case of clans with negative points, they would get a day or two to get out of debt or be booted.

As for what the salaries and fees should be, that is a tough question. I suppose you would start at some number and get lower as you get to lower and lower level clans. Suppose the top salary was 100K a day for clan #1. They would start with 100k, but would be taxed the highest as the top clan. Their tax rate or clan fee would be like 40% or something. Maybe clans 1-5 would have a 40% tax. Clans 6-10, 35% and so on. The salary would drop accordingly. When it got to the non bonus earning clans, they would be below the poverty line and get the subsidy (kind of like welfare I guess). They would have no clan fee and would instead still receive a salary which they could then use to buy better equipment etc and then better compete with the top bonus earning clans. They would still get less than the upper clans. It could be like clans #34 -50 get 10K a day, 51-60 get 8K, 61-70 get 6K and then maybe the really low clans get emergency assistance of like 15K a day or something and if they don't inmprove quickly they are booted. People who are booted would have to wait a week or something to re-join.

I don't know about the numbers and this might be a bit complicated, but I'm sure it could be simplified enough to work out and be a really cool addition.

QBOddBird July 26 2005 10:02 PM EDT

I put myself in a self-made clan for the exclusive purpose of getting farmed so I could make a lil more money off those who attacked me and lost trying to get clan points. In a way, that makes a sort of salary.

Stephen July 26 2005 10:16 PM EDT

So you are asking for the game to be changed because, having been here less than three weeks, you can't get a clan together that can earn enough clan points to make it into the top 30 or so? Clan rewards are the "salary" for those that fight well together as a clan.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] July 26 2005 10:22 PM EDT

My philosophy is that all money should come into the economy through battles. Having the Bank break this rule was a mistake.

- Jonathan

Nicely put, except where "Bank" = Salary

Icewindvz July 26 2005 10:32 PM EDT

Hmm I guess just Newbie Bonus (NUB) is not enough, now we need Newbie Clan Bonus (NCB) too...lol.

Personal I do not think Jon would buy it, teach you a little trick of how to whining.

When you want something from other, be sure to think what other want first, see when NUB add to the game, more player willing to start over again, therefore more membership will be pay, which lead to more income for our Jon.

But for your NCB Jon would not get anything out of it, therefore it will not be implementing. Until you can prove to him your ideal can own him whatÂ…

Starkadhr Gudbrande July 27 2005 12:35 AM EDT

On second thought, the best new rule would be no nubie bashing. If you are reported you get a 24 hour ban. Man, I've meet some nice, kind, friendly people, but I've also seen and heard a ton of newbie bashing! For heavens sake, just because you've heard the same question from ten different people doesn't mean you have to dress them down just for being number 11. If a question is asked in chat that you think is stupid, just ignore it. etc. etc.

Getting back to my idea, it was just a thought to try and make clans more appealing and or interesting. Maybe there is still some way to modify the idea into something workable. I don't know.

Another thing I was thinking of concerns economic clans. I know they get lowered xfer fees, but it seems like that's it. It seems to me that economic clans should have more economic power. One idea would include a discount at the businesses or increased resale value. It could be similar to the bonus for standard clans. Maybe 10% discount on weapons and armor from the store or perhaps tattoo or BS savings. Maybe each clan could choose a speciality like a forgers clan or a rental type economic clan and then get a discount in that area depending on their rank. It could include sales too. Maybe since you're an economic clan you know the market better and can get 5% more when you sell something. The percentage could decrease as your ranking decreases. Maybe only the top five or ten would get a bonus since there are so few economic clans. Or, maybe this would increase membership. I don't know. Later-

Undertow July 27 2005 12:39 AM EDT

Noobie bashing has been a CB tradition since way before you.

The typical response to a noob with a bad idea is:

"You've only been around for 3 weeks. Play a little longer, and you'll see why this is a bad idea."

Starkadhr Gudbrande July 27 2005 12:47 AM EDT

Wow, that very specific UndertowSacraficesBabies. Thanks for not giving any useful input about the chage idea at all. If you weren't sure, the nubie bashing rule was not an actual idea. Here, let me help <insert sarcastic face or comment here>

Jason Bourne July 27 2005 12:56 AM EDT

if you want clan rewards...fight and pay the people a salary yourself to hire the people into your clan.

no money will come into the game except by fighting, so this makes sense, you want the exp bonus, pay good people to fight wish you and get it for the clan yourself...

Starkadhr Gudbrande July 27 2005 1:10 AM EDT

Ok, wow, tough room. How about this: "Clan Team Battling". That could be cool. Clans could fight each other as a whole. You wouldn't just fight one character, instead, the whole of a clan could attack a whole other clan. Maybe each clan could have a set clan ba each day or week. If you attack a weaker clan you would get less exp and money except if you were the top few clans or something just like the top clans now can attack lower scored characters with out penalty. If a lower clan beat a higher clan it would get a bonus.
Or maybe just clan points would go up or down. It could cost a certain number of clan points to fight. Maybe it would cost 50 clan points to fight. If a higher clan beat a lower clan maybe they would get 75 points. And if a lower clan beat a higher clan it would get 100 points. So what do you think of entire clan battling? (it could involve money and exp or simply clan points or all three)

Jason Bourne July 27 2005 1:14 AM EDT

its been suggested before, if you can come up with a reasonable way to implement it other than just every individual in the clan fighting against the other one (like it is now) then maybe you can go somewhere...im betting that clans are not really big on jons to do list...

Starkadhr Gudbrande July 27 2005 1:27 AM EDT

What if each clan member's power, and MPR were put together and all their individual stats, skills, and magic were added together like a single character... I don't know how the game works, but it could work like the clan were a single character.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] July 27 2005 1:29 AM EDT

Terribly bad idea.....

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] July 27 2005 1:38 AM EDT

Seriously, play more than three weeks before making all of these suggestions...

If being in a clan gave you a salary then all the money in CB would not be coming from fights and... well, it just wont happen. I don't think this is one of Jon's rules that anyone will get him to change for a long time. It just wont happen, he tried it before with a bank and we all saw how that turned out...

Also, clans would become something that you have to join, a lot of us don't choose to fight in clans and if clans start paying people money to fight for them then almost everyone who wants half a chance at ending up with a strong character will have to join a clan.

As it is though, the bonus to fight rewards is enough, a lot of people fight in clans specifically because they believe they need the extra reward to keep up with the bigger characters (I for one, don't agree with this, but most people seem to) and by adding an additional bonus to the top clans we would actually see a bigger gap being created between the top characters and the weaker characters which is not what we want, of course the top guys may like the sound of that, but CB2 is obviously designed to favour newbs and give them a chance to catch up and whilst this change would help them a little, the bigger characters will fight more than newbs and they would shoot even further ahead with additional bonuses.

And finally, you can already do this without causing all sorts of imbalances, if you want to give a salary to your clanmates, either offer to pay X amount if they score over 1k clan points a day or offer to pay whoever gets the most clan points in a week a certain amount.
It's just not a good idea. Simple as that.

Play a bit more then make your suggestions... or at least think about them for a week before posting them.
I don't mean that as "You're a newb, your opinion doesn't matter", just you have to understand that the game has been around for years, almost everything has a reason as to why it's there or not being used at all, the chances of someone who has just recently joined suddenly coming up with a brilliant idea aren't great.

Blarg July 27 2005 2:59 AM EDT

Myself, i just totally cannot see the point of your last suggestion. It would be a lot of work for Jon to put that in so it would be.. exactly as if all your clanmates fought all the other clan's characters. Am I missing somthing on that one? As for the salary: If that had been implemented, I would simply create my own individual clan to get a 40% bonus as long as I get 1 CP a day. Then the subsidy part, I would either make sure I would get enough CP to keep in the 34-50 range for the extra 10k, or, not care because an extra 10k a day isn't much at all.

Finally, on your "high clans farm low ones" comment, I would think that most clans that are serious enough to get in the top 5 would try their hardest to bring down the ones near them, to either keep their position or go up.

Mikel July 27 2005 3:08 AM EDT

I like your idea, in fact I posted the same Idea in June and got the same lame responses from the same peeps... My advice, spend a little time looking over the previous months to see what was already suggested, but what ever you do, don't stop making suggestions because of a few rotten apples.

Feel free to hit me up with any questions, l listen.

[T]Vestax July 27 2005 4:08 AM EDT

My first post was a clan remake suggestion, which the idea actually got started from a conversation I had with Mikel, way back before anyone knew either of us. Truth was I hadn't even joined a clan yet and I got seriously flamed. Trust me, mine was far worse then this.

The best a person can do is answer you directly or give you an actual link to a previous discussion. I'll do my best to directly answer you of course.

In the assumption that big clans farm small clans, this is not entirely true. Supportership comes with the option to remove non-3-point clans from your fight list. This means that anyone not in the top 32 clans will be removed. (Yes, Stephen I believe we're up to 32 and not 30.) It will happen that you'll see a clan from the top 32 farm a #50 or lower clan (mainly cause these people value rewards over cp), but trust me when I say that the closer you get to #1 the more negative cp you get, as people start to gun for your team.

On the issue of a salary, my main issue is that, as Blarg has pointed out, there is no incentive to have a good clan. However, a bonus based on most improvement, much like when playing any sport with a handicap, is the type of bonus I would stand by. Then again an issue of where the money comes from for this salary is a problem. Where does the money come from if it doesn't come from fighting? The best improvised answer I can come up with is to take the money from clan membership fees, which already exist. Granted this money would vary a lot and just doesn't sound like a lot of income either. Maybe it will make you feel special though. Or maybe it could be based on you fighting, but given to you as one big lump sum for the weekly winners so it seems like a salary.

Anyhow, improving your suggestions is just a matter of time and forethought. If you review the post of the past or find a few trusted veterans to listen to, then you may be able to speed up the process some. Two things left to say. First is that try to remember that your objective is to convince people to go along with your idea, which means a more thoughtful idea is good, but it also takes a willingness to agree with people and see their point so that they can let down their guard and see your idea for what it is. Second, is that never fear the flame, as it can only hurt your feelings if you let it.

CoolWater [Superheros] July 27 2005 4:26 AM EDT

clans with low mpr chars fight other clans with low mpr. clans with high mpr chars fight other clans with high mpr. You end up with the same clan points. Clans with high mpr farmed clans with low mpr, they still get same clan points but less rewards. Clans with low mpr farmed clans with high mpr (which is unlikely), you get same clan points and more rewards. So everything pretty much even out.

Starkadhr Gudbrande July 27 2005 5:19 AM EDT

Thanks vestax and mikel. Constructive criticism is a good thing. I never said I had all the answers, just an idea or two. That's why I posted here so maybe we could all hash some thing out that would work. If you don't like the idea, please try to suggest a way to improve it or perhaps substitute your own idea instead. As for [DSL]Blarg, I don't think you quite understood about the "bonus". For one thing if you started your own clan, and got 1 cp a day then you would be farmed to negative points and after two days you would be banned for a week. And the 40% was not a 40% bonus to exp or money, it was the percentage of your particular subsidy or salary you would get. So if you salary was 1K, you would get $400 if you were #1 in your clan. And like I said, the numbers were just an example.

As for the clan battle idea, I was thinking about it a bit... one way to do it might be to allow each clan to create the best team of say, 1 to 5 minions with a limit of one minion per clan member and this team could represent the clan in clan battles. I don't know about programming, but maybe the selected minions could be copied and loaded onto a single character that could only be used in clan battles. It would be the clan character or maybe the mascot if you will. Updates and or minion substitutions could be made once every day or two or maybe only once a week. Your clan rank would determine the numer of points a clan battle would cost you. #1 -5 could cost 100 cp a battle, 6-10 80 cp, 11-15, 65 cp and so on. A higher clan could fight a lower clan, but they would have a lower net cp gain. (or cp gained could also be similar to the points gained when fighting normally, ie when you fight a character with a much lower score you gain very little and vice versa). Each clan could have a certain number of clan battles a day. Maybe 5 or something.

Here's a quick example. Clan #1 fights Clan #2. They are similar in rank so no penalty. Both clans lose 100 cp. Clan #2 wins the fight and gains 200 cp. (100 cp net gain)

Example two: Clan #4 fights clan #20. Clan #4 is much higher so there is a penalty. The penalty could be determined quite easy. How about this. Since clan 4 is top five, it pays 100 cp. Clan #20 is in the 16-20 group so it only pays around 50 cp. Clan #4 wins and gains 150 cp (a net gain of 50 cp). But supposing clan 20 is better organized and their clan character ends up winning, clan 20 also gains 150 cp, but their net gain is 100 cp.

The numbers could be tweaked a little. But perhaps this idea might not be to hard to do and I think it could be fun.

[T]Vestax July 27 2005 5:35 AM EDT

Sounds more like a shared tournament character, it may or may not be a good idea to link this to clans. Sharing the BA of this tourney character might involve simply splitting it up evenly among the players with the remainder going to the leader or the group. Then it might be better if entry fees were introduced in order to build up the reward pool. Either way I would be very glad to see the day that tournaments get introduced into the game, and not just in the FAQ's.

Sorry if this drifts us off topic.

Stephen Young July 27 2005 5:37 AM EDT

Unfortunately... Tourneys in the FAQ are just leftovers from CB1. Jon has no plans to ever include tournaments in CB2.

Starkadhr Gudbrande July 27 2005 5:47 AM EDT

vestax, I was thinking it would just have it's own ba of like 5 a day and the clan leader would chose when to fight. The other clan members could chat mail the leader if they thought it was a good time to fight or something. I suppose it does sound a bit like a tournament character...
You wouldn't win money or exp though. Only clan points and prestige.

AdminJonathan July 27 2005 8:46 AM EDT

contrary to popular belief, you need to make a better case for a change than "I think it would be cool"

Starkadhr Gudbrande July 27 2005 4:42 PM EDT

I think it would be fortuitous for users and creators alike. It would bolster clan membership, thereby increasing overall ba usage, resulting in more player loyalty and supporter-ship. This in turn would benefit the almighty creators with increased revenue and a larger and more diverse fan base.

Blarg July 27 2005 4:43 PM EDT

What would determine the amount of money a clan gets to use for salary payments?

Starkadhr Gudbrande July 27 2005 4:57 PM EDT

[SoM]Vampire King suggested in his post "clan change idea" that a small amount of money could be deducted from clan members earnings in battle and then redistributed in such a way that the top cp earners get more than they put in. This will encourage clan members to be the top cp earners, thereby increasing the number of ba spent each day. This would create a ripple effect leading to more clan membership and more supporters (a supporter would have a better chance of staying at the top of clan thanks to favorites lists, supporter items etc.). This in turn would lead to more revenue for John.
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