Suggestion for Archery (in General)

Gokhan August 3 2005 6:18 PM EDT

Hi, this is kind of late but, I think archery might depend on dexterity instead of strength, since it doesn't effect the damage done anymore...

moser August 3 2005 6:19 PM EDT

ST makes more sense, DX is dodging/moving related.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] August 3 2005 6:27 PM EDT

how does STR make more sense now? All archery does anymore is make Bows fire in all 3 ranged rounds, they dont pump damage anymore.

Good Idea.

bartjan August 3 2005 6:29 PM EDT

A strong archer usually is slow. So he needs to train more archery to compensate for his ST. Makes perfect sense to me.

Gokhan August 3 2005 8:21 PM EDT

I think the rationale for Archery depending on strength was the %40 boost effect that it had on the damage (damage depends on strength). Now firing a weapon is closer to having a successful hit, which is a property of dexterity therefore it should be changed that way.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] August 3 2005 8:28 PM EDT

Let us look at it this way.
Would you be more likely to pull back a tight string quickly if you were strong or fast?
I am pretty sure a big butch guy would be more likely to fire off 3 before a weaker fast guy could.
STR does make more sense.

Gokhan August 3 2005 9:00 PM EDT

I am afraid you might have a problem with the definition of fast, here it is:
"WordNet (r) 1.7"
adj 1: acting or moving or capable of acting or moving quickly;
"fast film"; "on the fast track in school"; "set a
fast pace"; "a fast car" [ant: slow]

Your question: "Would you be more likely to pull back a tight string quickly if you were strong or fast?"

The keyword for you to match these two is "quick".

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] August 3 2005 9:13 PM EDT

And that proves that you are just desperate to dig yourself out of a deep grave you have dug for yourself.
Give it up and admit your point makes less sense than keeping it at STR.
Stronger people will be able to fire more than a dextrous guy

Gokhan August 3 2005 9:18 PM EDT

I think the only person who dug himself is you, read my previous post until you understand what FAST means... These are abstract concepts both involve the muscle tissue, fastness which is more related to the dexterity concept will make you fire FASTER, strength makes your shots more harmful... Please only post after you understand or you really have a point...

Special J August 3 2005 9:26 PM EDT

bicker bicker bicker

bunch of kids I tell you

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] August 3 2005 9:27 PM EDT

Let me try this again, you try pick up a big bow, pull the string to full length and fire quickly with having puny muscles but being highly dextrous!!!
I would go for a guy with at least reasonable muscles to handle the bow, and wait, yes, your archery skill needs to be in line with your strength!!
Thankyou very much, this is now in the bag and take your insults to someone who can't read and don't know what they are on about.

Special J August 3 2005 9:33 PM EDT

You two can either hug and make up, or the next flame post will get a hefty fine since I am giving fair warning.

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] August 3 2005 9:43 PM EDT

Look at almost any other rpg out there. Archery is ALWAYS based on dexterity, and melee is based on strength. I don't have an archer or a tank, but I believe making archery dex based is the right move.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] August 3 2005 9:45 PM EDT

holy crap, here goes,

I could really care less how strong i was in shooting a bow, if i was strong with absolutely no DX, i would hit air at a crap load of damage, but what the hell will that do to John Doe over on the other side of the field?, If i had high DX, i would be garaunteed a hit everytime (exception = 4 minion teams with one tank vs. 1 minion tank) But, what good is archery/STR in the second round without DX to be able to hit for the damage increase the STR gives?

All I'm trying to say is, i could see why the Archery/STR was here before the archery change, But now that Archery doesnt grant extra damage for ranged (but now only helps out by shooting in second round only, which sounds like PTH to me here) DX would make more sense now because you need it to be able to hit, and because of it, lets you shoot second round with the help of Archery/DX.

Archery/DX = Good idea
Belegs = Damage ~ Strength

Sorry if its confusing, I'm typing as i think it...=P

Gokhan August 3 2005 9:46 PM EDT

I would like a poll about this, I was not trolling when I started this post, and the definition of fast was not a flame... Different people can send their arrows to different lengths due to their power, however the number of times they can pull it depends on their dexterity, hold on for this:
That is why you have double or triple strikes based on your dexterity, if you still want to fine me, I accept...

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] August 3 2005 9:50 PM EDT

i didn't see Mrwuss's post....=/ I saw the bickering and thought i could put a stop to it by posting what i did....=P

Special J August 3 2005 10:03 PM EDT

Personal insults are not going to be tolerated, if you can express your thoughts in a civil manner, then have it.

Grant August 3 2005 11:45 PM EDT

Given the last couple posts, this might be off the current subject, but ...

Skills with an optimal level are calculated relative to strength, but are increased by equipment that increases dex.

This is, above all, for gameplay reasons, because str < dex (dex is more important, thus most people train more), so 1/4 str is less than 1/4 dex. Also, because Dex-increasing armor increases skills, smart people can take advantage of that to train less archery/BL.

In sum, changing archery to dex would cause it to cost most people more experience, unless you're Gokhan and your tank has a higher str than dex.

To sum up, if you made archery dependent on dex, most people would have to spend more exp to get the same results they have now if they've trained a little dex and have dex-boosting equipment.

I mean, really, this is just a disguised "Nerf archery more" thread once you think about the practical implications of changing archery to depend on dex.

And I hope I was relatively civil :)

Gokhan August 3 2005 11:56 PM EDT

:) My tank keeps HP/STR/DX at the same level, I've got strength boosting and DX crippling equipment that produces the observed result. What I asked was plain and simple; now that Archery only modifies how many times you fire, base it on DX... If you don't want to at least be consistent with your design and base the double/triple strikes on STR...

Grim Reaper August 4 2005 12:10 AM EDT

Normally in rpg games, strength only increases dmg for crossbows, but in most games it is dex that increases dmg of ranged weaponry, be it bows or crossbows.

bartjan August 4 2005 12:37 AM EDT

What some people here fail to understand is that Archery depending on ST means that a high ST penalizes Archery, not improves it. All those theories about fast muscles just prove why Archery should not depend on DX...

[T]Vestax August 4 2005 12:42 AM EDT

Point 1: Grant is correct in that the purpose of DX based equipment used by many people is to help close the skill and 1/4 ST gap. If we went with your change then anyone who corrected themselves so that Archer = 1/4 DX would only gain the DX advantage when using the Elven Gear. Add +10 EG's to this character and now DX is 10% higher but now also requires Archery to be 10% higher as well, thus canceling out the advantage. On top of that you can't change how EGs work because BL is still based on ST (unless you want to make that based on DX as well and become ultra unrealistic.)

Point 2: Gokhan, in reality YOU HAVE BEEN MAKING THE OPPONENTS POINT, so stop it. You see when you say Archery is based off of ST what it means is that Archery and ST work AGAINST each other. More ST requires you to improve your skill. Adding DX should by your logic should make the job of firing a bow easier and should therefore make Archery need less not more xp. Any argument you have handed down above is now the property of the other side. Then again one might say visa versa.

Point 3: On the issue of realism, I am led to believe you have never shot a bow yourself. I myself have shot both compound bows and regular not-so-longbows as a scout. ST is certainly needed and yes the game mechanics are correct in making it effect damage. In fact, without ST accuracy becomes an issue since your arm is too busy shaking to make a clean shot. I assume since ST will always increase damage this means that your minions will always pull the bow back as far as they can every time. This means that ST will not make firing any easier or faster. Therefore, basing Archer on ST, or rather against ST, makes reasonable sense realistically as well.

Gorrila, in this game making everything, accuracy and damage based on DX is well past the realm of overpowered. The games you are referring to allow for ranged weapons to becomes overly strong, unrealistically mind you, but there is a cost. The penalty is usually that these ranged fighters are weak when any melee fighter gets right up to them. This means that the ranged fighter has to spend time to run away and keep themselves at a distance. In this game however, first ranged battles are unavoidable, there is no way to sneak up on a person so you must always endure ranged attacks. Second is that archers in this game do not have to sacrifice protection and have a vulnerability in close combat. Finally, third is that the archer has the option to immediately switch to being a melee fighter once melee rounds start.

Nixon Jibfest August 4 2005 12:43 AM EDT

bartjan, that makes sense. was that jon's original intent?

Gokhan August 4 2005 1:16 AM EDT

So let me get this straight, Archery compensates for the strength, because the stronger you are, it is harder to move?
I do understand the point though, DX should already increases, even doubles/triples your chance of shooting, so if archery is based on that it is working against it but why make it work against strength, that doesn't make sense either...
It is not very relevant but I've participated in some archery myself years ago when I was in summer camps, and remember fatigue effecting my accuracy...

bartjan August 4 2005 1:25 AM EDT

It doesn't really work against ST, it's just a mechanism to require big tanks to have big Archery (for max. effect). Without such a mechanism, why would anyone train Archery above base?
Similar mechanisms exist for Decay (relative to opposing AMF), GA (relative to incoming damage) and VA (relative to outgoing damage).

QBsutekh137 August 4 2005 1:29 AM EDT

Isn't he saying that is the point? That it should base off dexterity, not STR?

Undertow August 4 2005 1:37 AM EDT

Why would anyone train archery above base?

Bartjan, that was a strange unintelligent comment comming from you.

If it's based off dex instead of str, they still have to train it.

[T]Vestax August 4 2005 1:39 AM EDT

Are you changing your game plan. What would you have it based off of? It has to work against something in order for it to be scaled correctly over time. Yet, the only things an archer needs is HP, ST, and DX. Everyone needs HP and has nothing to do with using a weapon so that's out. DX is clearly not the solution. What are you going to suggest, "I'm so fast I'm slowing down?!". For the sake of game balance ST is the best answer.

For the sake of realism, which mind you shouldn't matter as much as game balance, I like to go back to the issue of damage. As I said damage will always increase with ST, which means that you could be using that ST to steady your arm and avoid fatigue, but your not. Instead your drawing back even further to get more power and your are therefore just as fatigued in your arm as before. The Archery skill is therefore nothing more then the ability to draw the bow back the full amount your ST will allow in less time.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] August 4 2005 1:51 AM EDT

Vestax, there are armor that increase STR as well, and it works just fine with

[T]Vestax August 4 2005 2:00 AM EDT

Undertow, the point that Bart was making is that Gokhan now sees our point. He can't argue for DX over ST anymore because it would mean he either supplies more arguments of other side or he has to change his position. Changing his position would only result in one response, which is the post would become nothing more then a "make my strat better Jon" post.

Instead the conclusion Gokhan came to which Bart recognizes is "why should Archery be based off of anything?!" This is why Bart responds the way he does. Without it based on either ST or DX there becomes no suitable reason to base it on anything else and therefore there is no reason why base archery would be more then what you would need.

[SoM]CupofJoe [Peoples Bank of Carnage] August 4 2005 2:02 AM EDT

I believe that Archery should never be based off of Dexterity for another gameplay issue. You may not remember Carnage Blender 1, but there was a problem there that may become a problem here after a few years.

The problem is: eventually, someone is going to have a bow that does well over +150 to-hit. Don't argue with that point... it will happen one day.

When that does happen, that tank will be able to unlearn Dexterity and put all of those points into Strength. His bow will fire arrows without the need of Dexterity. If Archery is based on Dex, he can pretty much unlearn Archery and train it to base level, thereby adding a ton of extra experience points to add to his strength, and STILL getting an extra round of combat in ranged. This huge strength makes the tank a walking shotgun in ranged.

"But, after ranged he'll be screwed!" you say. Well aren't you thinking outside the box today!? Unfortunately, it is even easier to make a melee weapon's pth over 100, so chances are very good that this same tank will have that covered.

"But, Displacement Boots. EVASION, Man!!!" Calm down... Just not going to cut it. Evasion's learning curve is much more steep than some weapons' upgrade costs.

So, realism can take a backseat in my mind... in favor of end-game gameplay.

Stephen Young August 4 2005 2:27 AM EDT

I see my buddy Joe has learned the game well. Hehe... either that or he has listened to me ramble about it for too long.
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