ToE or RoS or? (in General)

Maelstrom May 9 2006 8:44 AM EDT

Well, I've reached the point where I have to stop using my RoE if I want to stay competitive. I have a very large ToE, but it doesn't seem to fit my current strategy well.

I think a RoS might help my strategy. What do you think, should I re-ink my ToE to an RoS, or to something else, or what?

QBJohnnywas May 9 2006 8:47 AM EDT

A very large Toe but strangely very small feet.

It's a no brainer, just slap the RoS on the AS guy and off you go!

QBJohnnywas May 9 2006 8:50 AM EDT

In a bit more detail:

You'll get a huge bonus to your AS with it, plus protection from all those other RoS/DM/AMF users. Remember as well that you'll be protecting your own AMF from DM too.

Why isn't the ToE working out with this team though Mael? What isn't it doing?

Maelstrom May 9 2006 8:53 AM EDT

Well... I kinda want to use my CoI on my mage, and since I have an AS enchanter, it looks like the classic setup for an RoS. Plus two tanks now, instead of my old two minion FB/tank team - they'd benefit more from extra HP.

What do you mean by "protection from RoS/DM/AMF users"? I thought RoS just protected from DM. And isn't it only for the minion wearing the RoS?

QBJohnnywas May 9 2006 8:56 AM EDT

Yeah it does but most of the RoS users I've seen have the DM/AMF combo going on.. don't worry about it, you know my brain..

just don't forget: the RoS affect stops your dm affecting your AMF so you can have both......

Maelstrom May 9 2006 9:01 AM EDT

Yeah, and according to the wiki, the RoS provides DM protection to the entire team. Sounds good!

400k $CB to ink... grrr...

Any RoS users out there who can confirm that it helps, before I spend the cash?

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] May 9 2006 9:02 AM EDT

RoS protects the whole team from DM.
I was using an RoS on my character which is somewhat similar and ended up switching to a ToE which worked slightly better for me.

LayWaste-[bA May 9 2006 9:27 AM EDT

Haha, just push Mael into the corner and kick him so he doesn't know which way to crawl why don'tcha? :P

QBJohnnywas May 9 2006 9:29 AM EDT

You say that like it's a bad thing. ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 9 2006 9:42 AM EDT

RoS all the way... It'll reduce the effect your own DM has on your AMF and protect all your teams EDs from DM. Plus up the ED of the minion (AS?) that uses it.

It's a no brainer.

But you might want to hold off inking until after change month. I hope Jon will tinker with the RoS as it's the best thing to do with four minions.

Maelstrom May 9 2006 11:00 AM EDT

Thanks everyone (except those who want to kick me... !!!), I think I'll keep my ToE for a bit, and unless it's nerfed, change it to a RoS later.

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] May 9 2006 12:16 PM EDT

I don't like the ToE on this character, but I can't say I'd choose any tattoo over it.

The RoS has a lot of disadvantages. Firstly as it is you only have one spell that will be effected by it (AS). Having it boost and protect your AS will do just what the ToE is currently doing, adding to your resistance to damage. The way I see it, the ToE was designed to defend, give it the benefit of the doubt and let it do it's job.

Also as an added note, ToE allows more flexibility. With the RoS you're stuck with AS, and you have to make sure that your AS plays a big role in the fight or you may as well forget tattoos all together. With ToE you can ditch AS at any time and you're also free to change to other tattoos easily in the future (i.e a new tat gets created, another one becomes more useful to you) without any real change in your strategy. RoS doesn't offer you that flexibility, so I'd chose the ToE any day.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 9 2006 12:21 PM EDT

Sorry MrC, you're wrong on this one! ;)

"Firstly as it is you only have one spell that will be effected by it (AS)."

Not true. It'll also protect Maels GA and Prot from DM reduction and help his own AMF versus his own DM.

There is no other tattoo that will offer as much to a four minion team than a RoS.


MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] May 9 2006 12:47 PM EDT

Oh, sorry. Let me clarify that. I never consider prot because it's one of those spells that's not to be trained too highly. Maybe a mistake, but I don't think it should be considered the same as other spells.

And GA, well I just don't like GA. I overlooked that one, but aside from my poor choice of words, I stand by what I was saying.

Maelstrom May 9 2006 12:53 PM EDT

MrC, you're right on many of those points. My Prot is base (I'm using a MgS...), and my GA is still pretty small. Also, my DM is near base, to get rid of other people's Prot.

The thing is, I have a CoI and I want to use it on my mage. In that case, I would have to use the ToE on my enchanter, which is kind of a waste of the full effect of the ToE, since I don't care if that minion lives long. With an RoS, all of my minions would benefit from the extra AS and DM protection.

But my enchanter also has PL... how does PL interact with a ToE? Anyone know?

miteke [Superheros] May 9 2006 12:58 PM EDT

I agree with Mr. C.

The RoS is most affective against a team that uses a high DM and has lots of DEs. It's still useful in other cases, but this is where it shines. If the other team has no DEs and no DM, it is not a particularly good tattoo as it will only boost your AS. A ToE shines when the damage being done to your minions is about equal to the ToE limit. When damage being done is more than the limit, the ToE craps out. This is often true for single minion teams facing large DD spells, though I see many single minion teams with a ToE so they must think its worth it anyway.

Anyway, I tried a RoS with my team (a CoC based 4 man team) and it did not do nearly as well as my ToE. Of course, with a CoC team it is critical you extend the battle for as long as you can, which is why I think the ToE performed better.

Also you will note that most of the top teams have AMF, not DM (or at least not DM to any significant level).

To summarize, use a ToE when staying alive is most important to your strategy, such as a bloodlust or CoC team
Use a RoS when your DEs are critical to your strategy.

Note: A team that best utilizes a RoS would have 4 minions, each with a DE, one with a large DM, and one with a large AMF. It would fight best against a mage team with lots of DEs and no RoS.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 9 2006 2:06 PM EDT

My bad! Didn't notice the Prot was base! :(

But I love GA! It will mess up any team facing it that doesn't have DM. Tanks or Mages alike! The only counter to GA is DM, which isn't really viable if you want to use AMF unless you use a RoS.

Also, a ToE would be of most use on the Mage, just for the AMF backlash reduction. You don't really need the full ToE aura on an enchanter (especially if you put PL on that E). Boosting AS will do the same job as a ToE.

The combo of allowing your mage to use AG+CoI is just gray. 25%+ increase to your DD.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 9 2006 2:09 PM EDT

Plus the tattoo is on a PL minion. ToE won't reduce the damage the PL minion takes from others being hit.

But an increase AS from a RoS will allow the PL minion to absorb more and last longer.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 9 2006 2:17 PM EDT

Third! :D

Mael, from someone in the PL changelog thread;

"There is no real benefit to having a ToE on your PL minion, then, because it will absorb the damage the other minion takes fully, with no damage reduction (be it armor class, protection, ToE, or whatever)"

But I assume the damage done to the traget minion before PL absorption *will* be reduced by the ToE aura before PL takes it to the enchanter. :)

Maelstrom May 9 2006 3:34 PM EDT

The only reason the ToE is on the enchanter is because of the re-equip cooldown thing. I was moving it around, and it got stuck there :S

The thing is, I don't really want the ToE on my mage, since the mage doesn't do all that much damage - and without a ToE, the mage can use a CoI.

My main damage dealer is the tank in the back, with the ELB and Morg. I suppose in that case a ToA might be appropriate, but then I couldn't use my TSA and MgS.

The enchanter is the one that basically has a free space for a tattoo, which is why I thought of an RoS... but once the cooldown thing wears off, I'll try the ToE on my mage again, see what happens...

hzarb May 9 2006 8:31 PM EDT

Did you consider removing the PL from the enchanter and then placing the ToE on it? That would obviously make room for your CoI. Losing PL has its drawbacks but most people have given up on axbows/exbows anyway for the time being.

Also, why keep the buckler on the mage? It's taking 3% off your DD spell and probably not adding much in terms of AC. If you remove the ToE from the mage, you'd be able to use an McM on the mage anyway.

Maelstrom May 9 2006 11:30 PM EDT

hzarb, it's kind of like you tuned in at the end of the conversation ;)

The ToE was on the enchanter, and the MCM and CoI were on the mage, for the first 8 hours of this thread, then once the cooldown wore off, I switched the items to see how that would work. There wasn't actually any real difference, strangely.

The thing is, the primary effect of the ToE is wasted on an enchanter. The purpose of an enchanter is used up before ranged combat - he's not needed after that, as he does no damage. With the ToE on the mage, the mage lasts longer and does more damage over time, but with the CoI, he can do a bit more damage in a shorter time. (If I were to keep the ToE on the mage, I'd probably switch to CoC...)

If I were to use an RoS on the enchanter, I could take advantage of all the benefits of the RoS, and I could keep my CoI and MCM on the mage.

I only have a small amount of PL trained on my enchanter, so that he can make himself somewhat useful with the HP he gains from his own AS. Even at low levels, PL makes a pretty significant difference, so it's staying.

And the buckler is on the mage because it adds 35 AC and only removes 3% DD. When I was using a RoE on that minion, it helped a bit. I could probably remove it now, but I highly doubt it would make the slightest difference.

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] May 9 2006 11:43 PM EDT

There is another option.. RoE. A lesser RoE would be best but on your enchanter it would give you a nice boost to EC which may be just what you need.

But as for the ToE, I still think it's the best option. The reason I don't like it though is because it doesn't fit with your strategy. It'll give you a bigger advantage than any other tattoo will, but it's usefulness is limited.

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] May 9 2006 11:46 PM EDT

"A lesser RoE would be best"

It seems there is no lesser... according to items overview anyway. *sigh* I really should check these things before posting.

Oh well, a normal RoE then. :)

Maelstrom May 9 2006 11:47 PM EDT

"A lesser RoE" - huh? The Rune of Enlightenment? There isn't a lesser version, and I just stopped using it: see my first post.

And yeah, ToE is more flexible, and if I stick with it, I save 400k. Until I'm certain that RoS is better, I'll stick with my ToE.

A Lesser AR of 15 [Red Permanent Assurance] May 10 2006 12:33 AM EDT

I use the ToE, goes great with being walled in. Done the switching with a 500k ToE and that 300k lRoS now on the farm. ToE won big by comparison, as you can see we both have the AC to go with that. Would of made the mage a mini tank as well if there was more to spare. I'll loan you one of the RoSs(a 100k reg as well) if you want more testing, but if you're using that morg to best effect stay with ToE. Since I'm not going to read this whole thread can't say if using every EO could be working better with an RoS. ToE doesn't have to be huge for excellent results. A nice fat RoS on an average sized AS will make you go woot. Doesn't seem as impressive in use or numbers on an already high AS. ToE and RoS may both protect, but RoS has a gear for solid offensive crippling. Obviously my set is weak to FB&DM but not like I can continue to compete with those. No wonder you can't decide which tat to use when you spread interests out like this. You can stand tall verse SFBMs and stump a few 4 minions yet can't totally slap either. So you're stuck in the middle ground because there aren't That many SFBMs to use the RoS against and the ToE would allow more to the fav list. Not selling any RoSs except the lesser of course ;) so you can CM me and pay trans for a week loan before taking the leap of ink. Or hopefully find a bigger RoS because size matters here.
Rent an RoS, try before you buy, and pre-pick a few targets. Have a nice day.

Flamey May 10 2006 1:30 AM EDT

im sorry if what im about to say isn't of any help to you. i think RoS is the better choice, because i use one :P

i'm using the 4 minion AS-RoS thing.

in the wiki it says the RoS gives a small DM protection. i don't think its small unless the minion with DM has maxed it.

an example.

me, level 200k RoS, against a about a level 80k DM, which is a decent size at my stage(200k MPR) for a 4 minion team. i have a protection at an effect of (8) which is about level 8000, the DM, did not take anything off my protection let alone any of my other spells(GA, AMF, AS).

put that straight on your AS, EC minion and its fine, i think people under estimate EC, it does a lot of damage to tanks, and who doesn't want more HP, and not to get affected by DM.

not sure about the ToE, quickly read through the posts, it still seems RoS is better, come join the RoS gang :P
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