The rock to PL's scissors (in General)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 14 2006 1:44 PM EDT

I would like to see a new DD spell or enchantment that works verses the skills of the opposing team. Confusion or Stupification sounds like a nice name for it. Essentially the DD version would be cast on the minion with the lowest level skill first and would be based on a comparison between the level of the spell and the level of the skill.

An enchantment based version would work in a similar manner, dampening the effects of a opposing minions skills based of the level
of the enchantment vrs level of the skills.

So far skills seem to be the only thing left out of the rock paper scissors game of cb, lets see that change!

QBJohnnywas May 14 2006 1:53 PM EDT thanks.........shuffles off into UC corner.......

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 14 2006 1:55 PM EDT

eep I did forget about you poor UC least your skills are so high the chance of someone lowering them is slim to nil.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 14 2006 2:37 PM EDT

Maybe the AX needs a boost in the form of skill reduction?

Defensive Minion A has 100k dex
Defensive Minion B has 2500k PL

Offensive Minion A is using an AX (with new skill reducing ability, or maybe even a new xbow?)

OM A shoots DM A with the theoretical xbow, DM B absorbs damage, and the reduction of dex/skill. This lowers / removes the PL minions training of PL, thus allowing subsequent attacks with the AX to hit normally.

Gilgamesh2090 [NCB Shop] May 14 2006 3:19 PM EDT

poor UC folk? I think not - I know now why Jonathan never buffed UC. Interesting idea novice :)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 14 2006 4:59 PM EDT

Hmm well Gilgamesh, I guess this would also be solution for us poor tanks who can't hit those sissy la la unarmed brats. have a chanter train stupification and watch them start looking slow and small fisted like a real tank!

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 14 2006 8:48 PM EDT

So maybe a dual buff of the ax and ex is in order.

Ax now drains skills as well as DX

Ex reduces AC/Prot/Endurance and STR

QBsutekh137 May 15 2006 3:12 AM EDT

Nifty ideas! I do worry about UC, though, as it is more a way of life than just a skill (for those who use it...)

But an interesting angle of thought nonetheless!

QBJohnnywas May 15 2006 3:23 AM EDT

UC is a religion....or maybe a cult.......

Seems to me though that the real problem is PL and it's status as a skill....somebody suggested making it an enchantment instead - I can't remember who. But it does seem out of place as a skill. But on the other hand, I remember similar discussions about DM when it's full powers were revealed. And even before the introduction of the RoS it was possible to counter it simply by not training enchantments.

Somebody will work a way around it. I'm already thinking of ways....yeah right! ;)

(CB1)logan666 [Jago] May 15 2006 4:54 AM EDT

I've got an idea that might actually be a good counter to PL. Have the damage from slayer ammo be unable to be absorbed by PL and there by negating the draining counter that PL can give. Thoughts?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 15 2006 6:02 AM EDT

That's a great idea! :) And maybe the property could also be given to a melee weapon as well?

QBJohnnywas May 15 2006 9:19 AM EDT

Had a thought. And yes it hurt.

Ok, I kind of like Nov's idea here but the ability to dampen skills poses a bit of a problem for the UC minion. Affecting UC's evasion is one thing but 'dampening' the UC weapon is something else completely that I don't think is a particularly good idea. It's weak enough as a weapon as it is!

What if there was a skill or enchantment that could isolate a minion in a team from 'group enchantments/skills/auras? A one shot enchantment that would stop a particular minion from receiving the benefits of spells such as AS, GA, being on one end of the phantom link, and even lead to them being cut off from tattoo auras.

I haven't yet thought about how that minion would be chosen - perhaps to make it fair you could isolate the main damage dealer in a team not the enchanter themselves, so that a multi minion team could still get some benefits; and, so that single minions with enchantments didn't suddenly find their spells negated.

I'm still thinking about it but I'll try and fine tune it.

Just a thought...

QBBarzooMonkey May 15 2006 10:05 AM EDT

I like the ideas presented in general, but not as an generalized "skill" reducer. Although Bloodlust and and PL are low-investment, high return skills, UC and Evasion are huge investments before they are truly viable. Besides, UC is The Way. It was written, many moons ago, in a really big, leather-bound book:

"And then Jonathan broke the Second Seal, and UC was nerfed. Although the enlightened few died of broken hearts, they where whisked away on the backs of angels before the impending doom that was to follow."

And then Jonathan broke the Third Seal..."


AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 15 2006 10:25 AM EDT

I understand your concern folks, but skills (even UC) need a counter.
(btw anyone who thinks BL is a low investment skills hasn't ever had to train it on a heavy tank!). Uc deserves a rock at least as much as PL.

QBJohnnywas May 15 2006 10:28 AM EDT

UC has that rock - mage teams!

QBBarzooMonkey May 15 2006 10:29 AM EDT

UC already has a counter. It's called Direct Damage Spells.

QBJohnnywas May 15 2006 10:30 AM EDT

Beat you to it!

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 15 2006 10:30 AM EDT

And so a tank team should have no way to deal with UC ever?

QBBarzooMonkey May 15 2006 10:31 AM EDT

You have done well, Grasshopper.


QBBarzooMonkey May 15 2006 10:33 AM EDT

Big Morgs kick our butts, too.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 15 2006 10:35 AM EDT

I'm sorry buddy, but I'm not buying. I don't see UC an answer to all tanks, cmon that's just silly. The idea that just because you're using a uber specific strat somehow negates any need for balance seems almost fantastic, as though you boys think UC is some higher calling than actually putting on armor and a weapon. The idea of skill reduction is decent enough in my stupid opinion that it deserves consideration, even if it scares the crap out of you ascetic types.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 15 2006 10:36 AM EDT

And RoBFs! O_O

Especially with PL!

QBJohnnywas May 15 2006 10:37 AM EDT

Tank teams do have ways to take on UC.

If you raise your PTH high enough, either through upgrading your weapon or using a ToA you will hit the cat yowling little UC minion at least once per round. If your weapon is a large Morg you kill the insanely jumping around little UC minion pretty quick.

If you have enough HP, either through training HP, or using a ToE you will outlast the skinny little UC minion.

Raise your dex high enough - see Failure for a prime example - and you will dodge the balding little UC minion's attacks rather than them evading you.

Train a large GA or equip a large RBF and the backlash will kill the poor little UC minion.

Equip an large PTH axbow or exbow and you will weaken the ugly little UC minion.

Plenty of ways to stomp UC, and most of them things that a good tank team should be doing anyway....

Your round Nov ;)

QBBarzooMonkey May 15 2006 10:38 AM EDT

Here we go again, giving out all of our secrets to beating big UC... :P

QBBarzooMonkey May 15 2006 10:41 AM EDT

Oh, sorry - I forgot:

* removes tongue from cheek.

Is that better?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 15 2006 10:42 AM EDT

Nov, a single tank with a ToA, Trained Evasion and a massive weapon will be better/more powerful/ harder to beat by other tanks than a UC minion of the same size.


AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 15 2006 10:44 AM EDT

None of you have put anything like the investment the folks with big morgs have, if you were defeating them I wouldn't be the only one here arguing. Yes JW that's quite a list, none those address the fact that UC as a skill is so effective verses standard tanks that you HAVE to go the over kill route to beat them. If the best weapon in the game (Morg) can have it's special ability nerfed to Valhalla, you UC folks can certainly deal with a little % based drain!

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 15 2006 10:45 AM EDT

Training evasion yes, training anything else and no.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 15 2006 10:45 AM EDT

Take my character;

HP: 33,888/200,000
ST: 260,131/20
DX: 170,544/200
AC: 69
Unarmed Combat: 727,097/300,000 (75)
Antimagic Field: 290,401/304,085 (?)
Vampiric Aura: 57,624/60,000 (?)

Swap UC for 300K of Evasion (with 300K dex instead of 100K) and add a x77 +76 Morg, and you'll be better than my UC minion.

UC just replaces the need for me to have a large morg. :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 15 2006 10:46 AM EDT

Ah! so it's really not: "Uc deserves a rock at least as much as PL."

But: Evasion deserves a rock at least as much as PL.

QBBarzooMonkey May 15 2006 10:47 AM EDT

That just proves that PL needs specific fixing, not skills across the board. Have you seen my NW lately? Don't tell me about big Morg owners making a bigger investment than me.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 15 2006 10:48 AM EDT

evasion is 10x more specific than UC, it offer no offense what so ever.
You get a X100 1+100 weapon with your evasion? You want SOME?!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 15 2006 10:54 AM EDT

I'll have some! :D What you offering?

QBJohnnywas May 15 2006 10:54 AM EDT

I've got a (93) UC at the moment. That's nearly seven million XP invested. The same amount of investment in CoC for instance would give me about 600k damage per round. I get at best 400k and on average 200k per round with UC. Ok, so I get the evasive qualities but they're useless against mages. A large pair of DB's also cuts down my skill quite drastically.

And, from here on in UC starts becoming very very expensive in XP terms. And I don't have the option of raising it's level in a moment like real weapons and the blacksmith.

I've invested, oh how I've invested!

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 15 2006 10:59 AM EDT

You want to use UC above 500k mpr, fine have at it.
I want to see some balance and a counter added for skills
I'm sorry this cramps your UC lifestyle, maybe ask Jon for Rune
of Stupitude that will allow you to keep trying to enter a knife fight with a ping pong paddle

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 15 2006 11:00 AM EDT

How many folks are your MPR have a weapon similar to yours JW?
Anyone? Anyone even close?

QBJohnnywas May 15 2006 11:06 AM EDT

Ok, so an x93 weapon isn't that usual for someone of my MPR but I think that's more to do with how I play the game rather than a particular skill being over the top.

And as I said, from here on in it becomes insanely expensive to jump in level. To get up to 103 - that's only ten levels - will mean raising it by about another 4 million xp. How much does that equate to in cash input? Nevermind time....

QBBarzooMonkey May 15 2006 11:18 AM EDT

The reason for the defensiveness is that whenever 1 individual player has difficulty beating 1 individual character with UC, we get a "UC must be overpowered" thread. Then we have to scramble to prove otherwise, because it isn't in any way, and any kind of nerf would render it useless.
Just like Ranger complains that his uber NW AxBow is now a paperweight, my favorite part of my character would be useless if you get it nerfed. Investment? It was over eight months of playing and millions and millions of CB$ before my UC was a (x100)(+100) weapon. And then I had to invest even more CB$ and take a big reduction in level just to battle your giant fireball. Maybe NUB/NCB is overpowered, and character skills can climb too quickly now...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 15 2006 11:41 AM EDT

None of that excuses you UC folks from the aspects of the game that might adversely effect your strat. I'm not advocating something that would completely nuke you guys, (I would certainly except any axbow buff like I described to have a reduced drain effect) simply a change that would allow the continuation of the you beat me I beat him he beats you aspect of the game.

QBBarzooMonkey May 15 2006 12:01 PM EDT

But the issue at hand is really "PL needs fixing", not "all skills need fixing".

But, if you make enough noise about a "perceived" problem, then people start jumping on a "yeah - that's too powerful, to" bandwagon. Then, you have a misinformed majority clamoring to have something fixed that doesn't need fixing (all skills across the board), and the issue that does actually need fixing gets pushed aside or not properly addressed (specifically PL).

I personally will fight that with everything I've got to fight it with, sorry...

QBJohnnywas May 15 2006 12:12 PM EDT

Right, I'm home now and away from the office, where I always get a little bit feisty. I'm with BM on this one. Overpowered is when there is no counter to something, at least thats how I see it. And, as GL may testify to, I'm usually the first to argue against an 'Item X is Overpowered' thread!

But apologies Nov, this thread has gone a little way off topic!

Now, PL...where were we? Yes, I'm not sure it's skills that are the problem here. Simply that PL is in the wrong place. Make it an enchantment and then DM can hit it for all it's got.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 15 2006 12:14 PM EDT

Skills need a counter, period.

Pl either needs a nerf or a decent counter.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 15 2006 12:19 PM EDT

"None of that excuses you UC folks from the aspects of the game that might adversely effect your strat."

Nov, UC has many counters. Evasion, DBs, EC, Haste and Dex (to a lesser extent Strength and GS), RoBF.

What you sem to want is something that directly lowers a UC score? Why can't we then get something to directly lower a FB score (before AMF)?

Dex, Evasion, EC all help to lower UC damage, like AMF does DD. The Defensive dexterity can't be lowered, but neither can Evasions. BL can't be lowered. But is this a problem? They can't be reduced, unlike EDs, but then they can't be pumped (RoS) unlike EDs.

If you can reduce Skill levels, you must give a way for them to be increased (Above Dex items as Magic items also increase EDs).

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 15 2006 12:20 PM EDT

Now I agree whole heartidly that PL needs to be tamed down, but don't lump PL in with BL, Evasion and UC. :)

BootyGod May 15 2006 3:00 PM EDT

One at a time people. I think GL got a point in saying we should just focus on getting PL to something reasonable. Personally I think it was fine just draining HP. Maybe putting the HP taking ratio down to 4/5 but taking away it's effect replacement would be a good idea.

Karmic Mishap [Soup Ream] May 15 2006 3:16 PM EDT

No, that would make it too powerful against spread damage and tanks. The one monster-HP char could take ALL damage from ALL attacks until FB in the front kills you. :( It's way too powerful as it is, if it's going to stay a skill (due possibly to some idiosyncrasy in CB code that forces enchantments to be casted on the whole party), it should lose its effectiveness against specialty xbows. Furthermore, it is far too cheap; it should cost at least two or three times more XP for each point of PL to get the effect it provides, which is priceless. It doesn't need compensation for its (hopefully upcoming) nerf, it's way too overpowered. That's why it should get nerfed in the first place. ;)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 15 2006 5:21 PM EDT

So my fellow cb'ers, what would you say should be done if in fact Jon doesn't back pedal on PL? My solutions for the problem don't require Jon to give up his new babies favorite abilities, while still allowing teams with the room to adjust the ability to get around it. Jon is unlikely to nerf PL in any of the ways described here, why not solve the problem in the traditional cb manner.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 15 2006 11:23 PM EDT

after adding PL to my two minion team I think the down side to PL is it's weakness in regards to FB and CoC, by concentrating the damage on one minion, you lower the number of minions faster, thereby increasing damage and lowering the effect of various forms of resistance.

Hmmmmm. Makes you think a lot about how high you have PL train eh?

QBsutekh137 May 15 2006 11:33 PM EDT

That was always Ranger's whole point (at least about the ax/ex nerfing that PL gives) -- small investment for large ability.

All I want for a "PL nerf" is that two separate things (the transfer of damage and the life-drain crap) aren't part of the same skill. I just don't get that part...

Nerevas May 15 2006 11:47 PM EDT

I would say change it so it doesn't nullify VA or the two stat draining xbow effects. Then it wouldn't be nearly as bad and wouldn't need to be nerfed into oblivion.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 16 2006 12:21 AM EDT

Sut: I think Jon was looking for a key piece of the R/P/S game here, nothing prevented the drain items from functioning, they were hugely effective, so a skill gets introduced to counter the effects of the AX and EX and to a much lesser extent the hp leeching of the Morg/BTh.

We now need a counter to either it, skills, or something I ain't thought of yet...

Flamey May 16 2006 4:32 AM EDT

read a bit, i think PL should be an enchantment, too bad that enchantments have to affect whole teams.

not all Skills need a counter attack.

i think that PL is way too cheap,
instead of: 5000/5000 (10,000)
it should be something like: 5000/5000 (2,500) or even lower, right now i have my PL trained to 6k, enough to take all ranged hits. thats not enough.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 16 2006 9:46 AM EDT

Flamey you missed my recent point about the effect of PL on your fights vrs FB/CoC teams, having PL too big causes fights to end rather quickly. PL isn't quite so much about damage absorbtion as giving us a
way around VA/Morg/AX/ needs a direct counter. In my opinion the other skills could also use a counter. As more and more single minion skillful chars appear the need will just increase.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 16 2006 10:16 AM EDT

Nov. All the other skills have counters. Not direct reducers, but counters.

BL: Just increases Damage. Countered by EXBow, EC, AC, Endurance and Protection.
Evasion: Countered by PTH, Dex and EC.
UC: Countered by PTH, Evasion, Str, Dex, EC, GA, RoBF, AC, Endurance and Protection. (Plus you're smaller than a tank that uses a weapon, as you spend xp on your weapon)

Nothing counters PL, yet.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 16 2006 10:17 AM EDT

"As more and more single minion skillful chars appear the need will just increase."

My UC minions highest stat is AMF. I'm beaten by many single Mages under my MPR...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 16 2006 5:43 PM EDT

GL: not my fault you're training the wrong stat...

(seriously what possible point could having AMF that high on a UC minion have?)

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] May 16 2006 5:46 PM EDT

He's trying to work against me. But I have _growth_ on my side. ;)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 16 2006 5:47 PM EDT

he needs to just learn to take comfort in the fact I'll be turning the tables on you any day now...

QBBarzooMonkey May 16 2006 5:55 PM EDT

But soon you'll both be big enough for me to return some previously endured "tough love" (at least until your NCB fueled MPR skyrockets past me...)


AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 16 2006 6:07 PM EDT

LOL! Bar AMF, what's a single tattoo wearing minion to do versus those pesky mages?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 16 2006 6:11 PM EDT

You're not supposed to be trying to stop them...dancing around and throwing random kicks and punches != an effective method of preventing being cooked by the large ball of fire coming your way.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 16 2006 7:02 PM EDT


So, what you're saying is that the counter to a UC based tank is Mages? ;)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 16 2006 10:17 PM EDT

Look I'm sorry UC got caught in the cross fire of my idea...fear not!
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001o3G">The rock to PL's scissors</a>