My setup strat discussion (warning it is long) (in General)

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] August 3 2006 10:39 AM EDT

Here is as complete a breakdown as I can offer.

Wall AC 200 with +24 Mage Shield
HP 164,942 ST 23,885 DX 2,290 PL (86,101)
BoNE NW 2,545,583
Hxbow NW 1,203,623

Decay AC 98 with rented +35 TSA
HP 10,000 Haste (41,069)

ToA Tank AC 26 with +30 DB's and AoI
HP 70,000 ST 232,386 DX 221,931 Archery (1.00) Protection (6)
Named Elbow (4,660,611)
Named VB (1,193,920)
MPB 135,528

Enchanter AC 94 with +28 TSA
HP 10,000 DM (66,689) AS (68,404)

Score 1,193,241 PR 396,951 MPR 278,615
PR gained from tattoo 94,827
PR gained from weapons 0

Minion Breakdown:

Wall - High enough AC (42% protection vs physical and 24% vs magical) with +24 MgS to help with magic He trains about 2x HP to PL with some minor DX (enough that if the haste is nerfed, he still has some raw DX for hitting enchanters and mages) and some ST (small amount, usually a place I dump leftover exp). His ranged weapon is designed to hit the guy in front. Of late that seems to be enchanters, which is perfect for him. His melee weapon is again designed to do well against anything but tanks, and together these two weapons do a pretty good job of hitting enchanters and mages, and does enough damage to justify the exp expense in ST and DX (but the question might be if the weapons should be sold to bump the tank gear and less powerful weapons placed here)

Decay - The TSA will hopefully always be there to rent, even a much smaller one. The TSA is perfect for enchanters and decay minions. The idea is the magic penalty is pretty small compared to the protection from DD spells. This protection actually helps the wall to live longer as damage done to the enchanters and passed to the wall via PL is reduced. Why stick massive AC on a minion, only to let damage by pass the AC via PL. His main purpose is to cast that Haste. The haste helps the tank and the wall, and could even help the enchanters. The idea is that any DX on these minions will help protect against multiple strikes. The main idea is to allow the ToA tank to not have to spend as much exp keeping the DX and ST relatively equal. His decay is not base. As I add exp to Decay he is becoming more and more effective in his Decay role.

ToA Tank - His low AC (primarily due to the DB's and lack of shield) makes him vulnearable to magic. The wall's main purpose is to protect the ToA tank from magic through PL. The DB's + the AoI + his natural DX and hasted DX means he does pretty well against other tanks as far as not being hit too much and his low AC is not as much a concern versus physical. His most powerful blow comes from his ranged attack. He is focused on ranged damage. This is in truth further protection from magic and of course good against melee-centric tanks. The protection is not base. This is primarily a place to dump extra exp that can still help the entire team. One of my big things is if you are training some enchantment, that it positively affect as many people as possible. This is one reason I do not have VA. No VA in ranged, and VA would only marginally help the wall, and do nothing for the enchanters. The Haste/Protection/AS all affect every minion in a positive fashion. His AoI not only adds to his evasion on the DB's but assures me that when I get to melee (where I am weaker by comparison than ranged) the tanks have to kill everyone else before they can attack my main damage dealer.

Enchanter - He is in the back wearing a TSA I own. This is primarily to protect from Magic Missles and the TSA helps cut down on the damage the wall absorbs from PL. He casts DM and AS. The DM is primarily to cut down on GA damage. PL does not absorb GA damage, and with low AC on the tank, virtually none of the GA damage is reduced. This also cuts down on opponents using haste and GS to pump up minions, and the cut to AS is like doing a ton of damage before the fight even starts. You have to choose DM or AMF, and since I am sort of doing AMF with gear and PL, I went DM because of GA. The AS is another hedge on the ToA tank, allowing him to spend less exp on HP and more on areas that can hurt the opponent.

So what can I do to improve? I tried to give a complete breakdown so you could see not only what I have, but also what prompted me to add it in the first place, and what I think it does for me. Do I need to do something drastic to improve, not necessarily. I do pretty well under the current set up, I have thought it through as best I could and the results have been pretty good overall. But maybe I missed something. Maybe there is a way to get better, I have stared at it for awhile and not found anything, I was hoping one of you might.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 3 2006 10:42 AM EDT

A TSA nerf would hurt a bit for you, but it looks like a really nice setup

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] August 3 2006 10:46 AM EDT

since you have AoI on yout ToA tank you should put it first, wont change battle vs tanks, but will help you vs mm

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] August 3 2006 10:57 AM EDT

To be honest Pit I am more worried about CoC to the tank, than MM. The PL + TSA keeps that enchanter alive quite awhile and I would prefer to keep the tank with no AC no magic protection away from the brunt of CoC.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] August 3 2006 11:01 AM EDT

is the difference between 1st and 3rd spot to coc really that much?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 3 2006 11:01 AM EDT

How would the placement of the tank effect CoC damage?

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] August 3 2006 11:06 AM EDT

This is why posted, perhaps I am under the wrong impression, I have always thought that CoC damage was greater to first minion and got progressive less as it passed through each minion, as in minion #1 gets X minion #2 gets X-Y minion #3 gets X-2Y (or something like that), etc, etc. With the Wall and his MgS in front, the biggest part of the blast is severely reduced, or that was the plan.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] August 3 2006 11:17 AM EDT

And to Pit, in this case it does, because if the Wall is still alive and absorbing through PL then the wall would basically take the full brunt from the ToA tank then take his own reduced damage in the second spot. Have the biggest part of the blast, hit the minion most capable of making it the smallest and have that damage NOT come through the PL. Then hit the next best protected minion, and have only that damage filter through, then the unprotected tank. I would put the tank in the very back, but I need protection from the MM which is why he is in the third spot.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] August 3 2006 11:21 AM EDT

yea, i just didnt think the difference was that much for CoC, but i could be wrong

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] August 3 2006 11:26 AM EDT

Let me pose some specific questions:

I am torn on the Wall and his weapons. First selling the big BoNE will give me a poor return on my NW investment, and Hxbow even worse. I have a small BoNE on deck, and could easily make a much smaller Hxbow. I could sell the big BoNE and the Hxbow and get that NW sunk into the tank weapons, and take drastically smaller weapons and put on the wall.

But I kind of like the increased hits and bigger damage the bigger weapons do on the wall. He out paces the Decay mage at least 4 to 1 on damage right now for the majority of opponents (read those that have some AMF)

He sweeps enchanters and mages away pretty well, and backed by their reduced AS from my DM, he does pretty well.

Oh one other thing on the minion order Pit, I want the Decay to fire BEFORE the Tank, I wish it could before the wall, but that needs another AoI to get that done, and even then, the benefit to cost is pretty marginal considering all the AMF I run into. But if it works Decay then tank is plain old deadly.

QBJohnnywas August 3 2006 11:29 AM EDT

I think CoC damage is the same as FB in terms of who it hits. From what I remember from my old CoC team anyhow.

From my own team - currently undergoing some small changes in case you're wondering why you're dong better against me :P - I would say putting the focus on your main tank for damage would be better. If you remove those weapons from the wall does it make any difference would be my question. If not then is there a point in them being there?

But that's just personal preference and opinion. I tend to think of a four minion team as being like an arrow - the tank the arrowhead, the wall the shaft and the enchanters the flights. For me the three non combatants are solely there to ensure the tank can do the best he can.

All For One if you like.

But there are plenty of examples of the opposite working well too. Maelstrom and Barzoo both do really well with multi damage dealers - better than me mostly, so maybe it's my preference that needs a rethink....

Otherwise I can't see anything to 'change'. And I've been looking closely!

QBJohnnywas August 3 2006 11:34 AM EDT

Just for clarification on my opinion:

My view of damage dealers came from a discussion with MrChuckles way back in CB1. He said 'what's the point of a wimpy tank? If you're going to have a tank it should be the biggest meanest baddest tank you can make it.' That's been pretty much my view ever since.

Unless you're being clever, and cutting down your opponents in other ways, the more damage the better. There is always the possibility that by spreading your 'cash' focus for weapons that you're diluting your damage.

But like I said - 'opinion', certainly not a definitive view....

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] August 3 2006 11:41 AM EDT

Well the new CoC damage knowledge does change things. I really want the decay to work at its maximum or I will ditch it. The idea is that the decay hits then the big tank hits. Even with AMF he is starting to cut some decent HP away.

As far as the weapons on the wall, I doubt I would lose one fight without them. But, they add no PR as it is, and they are hard to turn into CB2 at a decent ratio. The only reason not to put them there, is if I could turn that into NW investing in my tank gear, otherwise it just sits on a mule gathering dust anyway.

At one time, in the not so distant past, CB2 $ was a non-issue. I basically had my own printing press. Now it is. The idea of AoI everyone but wall and AoAC the wall is great in theory, but would take a conservative 2-3mil CB2 just to get the base gear to do it. I think that bang for buck, if I have that 2-3mil, then I should put it in the tank weapons.

The idea of PLing someone besides the wall is intriguing. My problem is, I hate to rely on AS to bolster my PL battery, and if I do not rely on AS, I have to put a lot of his exp into HP and into PL and then into the enchantments, when the wall is already training a lot of HP. I was afraid I would dilute the enchanters so much, that I would have to ditch the enchantments in favor of a straight PL battery.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 3 2006 11:43 AM EDT

I've never seen any indication of an increase or decrease in effect for the spread damage based on minion order, if someone else thinks they have I'd like to hear it.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 3 2006 11:45 AM EDT

CoC damage is an equal spread, like FB.

I retrained Awen to have a small Coc and fought OverIdge once (No AC, no prot, no endurance, no amf), getting 25 rounds of CoC results.

I'm not going to post the damage by round.

1st Minion: 2,182
2nd Minion: 2,135
3rd Minion: 2,193

Close enough I think. :)

Some thing to additionally consider.

I can see the pro's and cons from having PL on your wall.

Ideally, you want every physical attack to hit your wall (unless you opt for a doging tactic of not being hit), and then be taken up by another PL minion.

But, what else are you going to train on your wall?

Why not do something like I did. Have Str/HP and BL on your wall. Use it to take out E/M's but also have enough pth on wepaon to hit tanks (at least once). T

urn one of your E's into an PL massive HP absorber. Maybe the last one, the DM E.

If you can afford them, why not have the wall at the back with an AoAC, and your other minions in front with AoI's. Wall takes MM and physical, CoC/Fb get's spread, and someone with low AC sucks up the reduced damage with PL. You don't want PL on the Decay M/E.

So how about;

1) Decay Mage with AoI

2) PL, HP, DM, AS with AoI

3) ToA Tank with AoI

4) MgS Wall with AoAC.

Your Decay attacks before your tank, but you lose the wall attacking before the tank.

Well, it's a start. :)

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] August 3 2006 11:57 AM EDT

OK so I will drop CoC minion order from my thought process. Some reason I had that impression.

Certainly no problem with the wall attacking after decay, my only desire is decay then tank, past that attack order means very little.

I am afraid if I go PL HP in addition to the DM/AS that it will just make him weak in four areas instead of OK in two. I think if I was going to go with a PL battery elsewhere I would put it on the Decay mage, and not train any more in haste or mabe not train anymore in Decay. The extra HP will have a minor positive effect on the Decay so it is at least partially leveraged better, and Decay can easily do OK without a lot of exp invested.

Johnnywas, the chuckster and I are in agreement. I am all about focus and leverage (hedging). If you have one major damage point, make it major! The trouble is that how much could I get for my almost 4 mil invested into a BoNE and Hxbow. I am guessing less than half (less than 2mil if both sold). If that was a Morg or BTh, shoot, you can be assured it would not be on my wall. It would be sold or used on the tank. If I ever get enough into the tank weapons such that weapons start adding PR I will drop the high NW tank weapons like a hot potato. Until then, and until the soon to be boosted BoNE happens, I cannot see selling them off as a good bang for buck investment.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 3 2006 12:16 PM EDT

If you've got the weapons, and they don't add anything detrimental (no added PR) then there is no reason not to use them. For now. ;) But, what would you do ideally?

If you don't really want any more Haste, and you're not prepared to invest in Decay to keep it at/above AMF you face (but just big enough to ward off any base AMF...) then don't put any more into it.

(As an aside, you got me thinking about a single Decay mage with a IF...)

Putting PL on the Decay mage would actually be better. You want it to last to melee, but you don't want it to live past your tank.

The only thing to consider is that AMF backlash could knock a sizeable portion of your PL buffer off.

I've also consider using a Tank with VA (from ED or weapon) as a PL minion. Keeps bringing himself back to life as PL keep taking him to zero HP. ;) letting him leech for another round. only downside is that would mean no Archery/BL and could be dicey if yoru tank is your main damage dealer. ;)

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] August 3 2006 12:25 PM EDT

I am starting to like the idea of PL on the Decay mage more and more. I agree the AMF will hurt the PL, but that is only when we get to melee. And seriously, with my set up, if I have to rely on a lot of PL drain in melee I am in trouble anyway. I need most of my damage and protection done in the ranged, with the clean up with the wall, decay, tank to be mostly that, clean up. Granted certain tough opponents, like say Johnnywas, melee gets pretty critical. I win mostly if when he finally gets my tank, his first blow misses. I nerf his Haste with my DM, he lets me get DX from mine, so with the DB's and AoI and slightly higher DX, I can get him to miss me that one critical time, and it usually is the fight. If not, he does over 100K+ damage to the tank, and finshes the fight in a draw or win.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 3 2006 12:36 PM EDT

The protection on your tank is only (6). Have you considered sticking it on your Wall instead?

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] August 3 2006 12:44 PM EDT

Yes, with the MgS it would always just be base, the main reason was when I had left over exp to train from my insane need to make the take proportions even and easily calculated, so I would dump the left over into protection now and then. It is a minor part of the strat.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] August 3 2006 12:50 PM EDT

Thats tank proportions. I like them to be even so I can easily see how my archery ratio and stat boosting gear and all that works together.

One of the main things I have been able to do from the kindness of a well deserved QB infront of GL's name, is get the Decay mage infront of everyone. Now to let his exp sit for awhile until I can make a move with PL and give it a proper test as a replacement from PL on the wall.

Thank you everyone for responding, and please any and all additional suggestions are wanted and welcome.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] August 3 2006 12:57 PM EDT

I tried the 3 minions with AoI wall in the back set up. The trouble is, no one, and I mean no one near me uses MM as the big damage doer. It sort of messed up the attack order a little, and I actually lost a few fights I did not expect too.

So now I have Decay/Wall/Tank/Enchanter. With AoI on Decay and Tank.

As soon as I replace the PL or at the least augment it from the Decay minion, then I might have to look at the order again :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 3 2006 1:04 PM EDT

"Yes, with the MgS it would always just be base, the main reason was when I had left over exp to train from my insane need to make the take proportions even and easily calculated, so I would dump the left over into protection now and then. It is a minor part of the strat."

;) Stick Protection on the Wall and have a small VA as your dump stat on the tank.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] August 3 2006 1:33 PM EDT

Hmmm I just might like that......

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 3 2006 1:36 PM EDT

And with a BoNE, the Wall will be able to leech some HP back as well as the tank. ;)

velvetpickle August 3 2006 1:53 PM EDT

Sef... I didn't read all the posts in the thread, so if I am reiterating something that has already been said, forgive me. I know someone else suggested adding a second PL, and where I was reading you were up in the air about it. I think having another PL could be good for you.

I would add a PL just larger than the wall's to your E. He is not doing any damage as it is now, so letting him absorb the dmg your wall would normally take dead on (at the 9/10ths rate) would allow your wall to stay alive for a few rounds atleast and continue to offer his substantially higher AC, diffused spell dmg, and his own PL to soak up spell damage from your tank. These are the main benefits, but keep in mind also that the more dmg you PL from VA (or MH/Both) tanks, the less they are able to absorb....

You would probably want to bolster the E with some additional HP to avoid DM as well, but I think the investment would be worth it.

Secondly, I would try to up your weapons on the tank as much as you can and use that WA to your advantage. What is the PTH on your weapon, and ToA lvl.

Another possiblity might be swaping the DB's on the tank for EB's. The PTH granted from a ToA, combined with a good PTH weapon, and high dex, may allow you more strikes per round against all minions. Where the DB's now are just helping you against other tanks with a PTH on their weapon.....

Your character looks good to me. Keep in mind it used to be 1.5mil score or so is where most tanks seem to hit a wall and get frustrated, this may have adjusted recently with the big tank change, but the "wall" is still there somewhere and it may take some experimintation, and "bad changes" to break through it :)

Look at my history graph and you will see I was flatlined at 1.5mil for almost 2 months, before I finally decided to drop my CoC mage to focus more on defense, and tank support to get through it. (cost me a few 100k xp I'm sure.)

CM/PM me if you have any questions or want to chat about your strat. Like I said it looks great to me, but those are some possible options you could try.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] August 3 2006 2:07 PM EDT

vp, I like your reasoning on the additional PL. Do you think it would hurt to put the PL on the Decay mage before it is capable of being above the wall? As in, should I wait until I could do it all at once, or can I do it gradually?

The + on the bow is +50 the ToA is max tattoo level 375,220 and will be for about 990K levels total.

I debated EB's over DB's a long time. Still up in the air there myself. Part of the debate is because I would likely have to sell the DB's to buy the EB's

My thought it later on I will want the DB's much more. Maybe I am wrong.

QBJohnnywas August 3 2006 2:23 PM EDT

'Keep in mind it used to be 1.5mil score or so is where most tanks seem to hit a wall and get frustrated, this may have adjusted recently with the big tank change, but the "wall" is still there somewhere and it may take some experimintation, and "bad changes" to break through it :) '

It wasn't just tanks that hit that wall. Now that wall appears to go from 1.7 mill at the top to about 1.2 mill at the bottom. So many teams in that area of quite large PR/MPR, that fast moving NCB teams have no choice but to sit it out and be patient until their own MPR grows....grrr.... :/

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] August 3 2006 2:46 PM EDT

VERY aptly put Johnnywas. I am of course right there with you on the fight list woe, and yah I was looking for a spark to kick to that next MPR group I was able to beat :)

QBJohnnywas August 3 2006 3:13 PM EDT

Meanwhile, sneaking around quietly is Freed. Who can take both me and Sefton with his archer based team.

700k + on the MPB and a large pair of DB's....not nice!

QBJohnnywas August 3 2006 3:16 PM EDT

200k + a strike in ranged. And thanks to the DBs my tank doesn't even touch him.....those make it like facing a UC tank....

velvetpickle August 3 2006 4:32 PM EDT

It wouldn't hurt anything to start training a small PL and building up to the tank I shouldn't think, you just won't get the advantage of prolonging your AC until it is a higher lvl than the wall's.

I went back and reread that people were suggesting PL on the decay mage... I understand that with the TSA our E is acting as a DD shield, any chance you could swap the TSA's, let the mage act as the shield, and PL all his damage with the E/Wall? My opinion would be that I would rather loose the enchanter before the wall or a mage that is doing some damage.....

And on the DB/EB, I would put some heavy consideration to it even if it means bumping up your + on your weaps. The way you are set up now, the DB's should only see limited action, as you are guarded from all damage the DB's protect against by the AoI. You add in an extra hit for each of the rounds your AoI is protecting you, and the damage should be higher than the extra damage taken by loosing the DB's I would think.....

velvetpickle August 3 2006 4:37 PM EDT

going back to the CoC/FB discussion from the begining of the thread...

It has always seemed to me that the ammount of dmg taken by each minion in order is fairly random. My 2 E's had a pretty equal AC before, and were both close to my tank, and sometimes the first minon took the most, sometimes the last, sometimes the middle etc....

I could be wrong but that is the way it seemed to me.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 3 2006 5:51 PM EDT

"those make it like facing a UC tank...."

I was having a hell of a hard time facing a UC tank my size. ;) My EC might have reduced his dex to near nothing, but it did nothing for the Evasion he had, and therefore the unreducable Defensive dex he had. I couldn't land a hit!

"It has always seemed to me that the ammount of dmg taken by each minion in order is fairly random."

Oh yeah! It's random over a large range. I made a post about it ages ago, I saw my FB damage fluctuating a lot. Sometimes hitting for far more than I expected, sometines (ont he same target) doing comparitivly little to the max I'd hit.

But the spread over each minion is even, then it's random based on that. ;)
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