EC versus AMF (in General)

QBJohnnywas September 9 2006 7:09 PM EDT

On one side the anti tank spell, on the other the anti mage spell.

However AMF, as well as reducing the damage of a DD spell also damages the mage. So, in the name of balance, how about when EC weakens and makes clumsier the tank it causes him to trip up and hurt himself? ;) Sounds a bit silly I know, but it would even them out somewhat.

As a serious comment, the EC 'backlash' would be a tiring effect, causing the tank to lose HP over the cause of a battle.

Adminedyit [Superheros] September 9 2006 7:11 PM EDT

the lowered DX already opens the tank up to multiple hits thats enough of a backlash.

QBJohnnywas September 9 2006 7:14 PM EDT

That's only a benefit to a tank team using EC. Mage teams using EC don't get that benefit. Which is why I suggested it. ;)

Adminedyit [Superheros] September 9 2006 7:46 PM EDT

lowered ST means lowered damage as well, thats the mages benefit.

QBOddBird September 9 2006 8:02 PM EDT

I see what you are saying.

AMF gives a double whammy - hurts and reduces damage.

EC just reduces damage, and it has to be trained much higher in comparison to the opponent's stats to make a worthwhile difference. Additionally, it is only advantageous offensively for tank teams, ToA tank teams in particular.

I agree. Let's beef EC up a little bit, make it a more viable option in some way, whether that's through backlash or not.

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] September 10 2006 12:51 AM EDT

I don't know, it might be that I am not an impartial voice on this because of my dear Stalker, but here is my two cents. Yes, AMF has two effects, but EC has many advantages of its own.

For starters, EC lowers two statistics an equal amount- that means your 200k effective EC means you neutralize 400k of the stats on their tank(s). Another thing, EC never gets weaker. A big mage can overpower an AMF with more XP into his spell. But a trained EC will always have the same effect and always will cripple the enemy tanks. Next, EC reduces their DX- which has several benefits. This means they will hit you less, especially if you utilize DX, Evasion, or DBs of your own, and it also means that you and your tank can hit them more, increasing your damage each round. Finally, you reduce their strength- and if you can overpower their ST with your EC, their tank will do no damage to you no matter how much NW they have. Also, if your EC gives your tank, provided you have one, a significant ST advantage, they will take reduced damage from theirs.

Overall, many more benefits come from EC. It's just a matter of utilizing the stat advantage with your team build. Sure, it's a bit more complex to use than just sticking AMF on any team, but at least for me, complexity is a good thing.

Flamey September 10 2006 1:00 AM EDT

ok, put it this way.

you are a 4-minion non-ToA tank team. you have EC trained with VA or GA, not at the 100% of the minions total exp.

versus a single ToA tank, it will basically nothing. yes, you will reduce ST and DX but not enough to do any real harm, and it will still overpower your non-ToA tank. it may lower their defensive DX but not by much, because they can still hit you from the granted PTH the ToA gives. and if they can still hit you with a mighty big weapon, then there you go. bye bye 4 minion non ToA tank team.

QBOddBird September 10 2006 1:08 AM EDT

Vaynard - a Tank team overpowers an EC just the same as a Mage overpowers AMF.

Additionally, the fact that it decreases two stats is nullified by the fact that you have to train twice the effect as level.

I still see no advantage here whatsoever. Its ability to reduce DX is nice and all, but when you add PTH into the equation, its usefulness is reduced even further.

Flamey September 10 2006 1:11 AM EDT

it would be nice to see two different EC spells.

1 would be to only reduce DX, so 75% of the level would be the effect or some other number.

2 would be to only reduce the ST, same percentage.

i know those numbers are high, but they can always be balanced.

bad thing i see about this, is there is no way to weaken/dispel it as it is an EO spell and DM doesn't work on them .

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] September 10 2006 1:50 AM EDT

Thanks for the input BBQ. Good point, I misworded the part on EC reduction on two stats. It does boil down to every point of EC cancels one point of either ST or DX (to get technical .5 point of each). But it still is a constant decrease- while an equal AMF only casts at 40% vs an equal EC (unless I'm mistaken). And the mage becomes more immune to AMF just by training his spell.

And yes, a tank can overpower EC. Very true. But again, EC is a more complex spell than AMF. Anybody can slap AMF on a minion and start beating a few mages. It's easy. If you want to beat a tank and all the NW put into it, you can't just lower his stats a little and hope your mage fares better. Your team has to utilize EC as part of its strategy, not just as an addition. If you have a mage only, train a little Evasion. Get DBs. Train a minion as a tank. Just realize you have to do SOMETHING for EC to help. Experiment, have fun--- after all, that is the essence behind CB

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] September 10 2006 2:03 AM EDT

I don't think its too bad. The things that really go against it are the much larger boosts easily available to ST/DX leading to an increasing gap between ST/DX and EC as we grow. (and maybe the ToA)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 10 2006 7:00 AM EDT

Yeah. While AMF can only be boosted by a Corn, DD can only be boosted by CoI and AG.

EC can still only be boosted by a Corn, but SBM by BoM, TSA, HoE, AoM, TG/HG and DEX by EG, EC, EB and a ToA for both (which is also increased by armour).

At equal trained values of EO to what it counters, EC is a better counter than AMF. EC will take (one or both) of it;s counter stats to zero, while AMF only reduces damage by 50% (but provides a 20% damage backlash as well)

EC loses to AMF only by the amount of stat increases available to the things it counters, leading it to be impracticle in it's application.

Plus, if EC *doesn't* reduce one of its counter stats to zero, it provides little benefit. AMF will at least do some damage and reduce damage, if it casts at anything above 0%. :)

Ambidex September 10 2006 7:12 AM EDT

I think ediyt had the best point that you will strike more hits against an EC inflicted opponent (I believe that the ST toughness bonus is only in melee against physical?), thats the best analogy to backlash that you can get. Its also why I wouldn't bet on it being changed.

Mages get backlash because they can always hit, tanks are more likely to miss with EC, so in a way its fair...

QBOddBird September 10 2006 7:17 AM EDT

True that you *might* get more hits from an EC'd down opponent...but it is no guarantee. You've gotta knock their DX down to yours to keep THEM from getting extra DX-based hits on you, and further BELOW yours to get any extra hits yourself. Which leads to the question.....if you've got enough extra stat points to train that much EC, why aren't you putting it into your own DX and STR?

Ambidex September 10 2006 7:20 AM EDT

When you have more than one minion or if you don't want to train EDs?

QBOddBird September 10 2006 7:24 AM EDT

Guess that's true. My point's best made not by myself, but by a CM I recieved from Karn:

"Like you have said, I also think that EC is underpowered. I have about a 300k anti-magic that when I fight hubbel, the 4 mil fireball, it still reduces the damage by 9%. But if I had an EC of that size it would barely do anything to the tank since the tank would still get multiple hits and the damage would still be about the same. Also, since antimagic returns some of the damage back. I am hurting joe on average 80k just because my antimagic reflects 3.6% of the damage back."

A small AMF can drop damage and give major backlash. But a small EC is like training a DM on your AMF - wasted EXP. (Yes, I know, RoS, blah blah blah)

QBJohnnywas September 10 2006 7:40 AM EDT

I get a better return for my investment from AMF than EC. An EC of about 500k wouldn't dent me enough to drop my damage down too badly and I wouldn't be taking any extra damage.

An EC of 500k can shut down some medium sized mages, dealing them damage in the process. And as for decay.....

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 10 2006 7:53 AM EDT

"An AMF of 500k can shut down some medium sized mages, dealing them damage in the process. And as for decay....."


No charge mate, you get that one for free! ;)

QBJohnnywas September 10 2006 7:59 AM EDT

Thanks for that.... I'm cooking sunday dinner while I'm doing this...and dancing round the room to old Two Tone tunes.

'mirror in the bathroom, please talk free....'

Flamey September 10 2006 8:01 AM EDT

big difference is, AMF is a percentage while EC is a number that rises.

you can do a lot of damage in higher ranks with just a little AMF, with the example of karn. but with a Small EC, you're better off in HP or anything else, it is completely useless if used like it was with karn :)

Adminedyit [Superheros] September 10 2006 10:28 AM EDT

I personally think you guys are comparing cats to dogs.

QBsutekh137 September 10 2006 12:20 PM EDT

Cats to dogs, yes. THat makes it an interesting discussion, and is why the discussion has merit.

Backlash hurts. A lot. The biggest AMF laid on me gets something like .20 to .25. That means I lose nearly half of my HP just in the ranged rounds, just from backlash. "Wear a ToE!" you say. Sure, I could. Hooray for less choice for mages! Now not only is EC still useless for me, I am forced to wear a specific tattoo to combat the EO made to destroy me.

Dexterity is the problem. It makes EC only useful for tank vs. tank, because dex is an all-or-nothing comparison. Have amways hated it, and always will. I am at the point where I wish Dexterity were more of a pth conversion. Whatever remaining dexterity is left after penalties and EC, convert it to pth internally durin gthe battle. Get rid of the fact that a higher dex not only means more hits, but also more dodges.

The logic already exists in the programming to compare pth and dexterity (since we know DBs can eat into actual dexterity if their + exceeds the weapon +) But right now there is no point in me using EC unless I can send a tank all the way to zero dexterity. That's silly. If I put chains around someone, they are going to hit less even if they do still have more dexterity than me. Let's have it work that way in battles. Damage from weapon x and STR has been made linear, let's just make dexterity linear too.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 12 2006 3:03 AM EDT

I think the only problem with converting Dex to pth would be the limit on the amount of hits Dex can provide.

It would get to a stage where training Dex over 100K (say for example) is worthless, as that is the pth cap conversion for two hits.

Any more Dex trained is only there to provide a buffer to EC.

Actually, that might not be a bad idea... ;)

Flamey September 12 2006 3:11 AM EDT

GL, what about the defensive DX it offers?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 12 2006 4:56 AM EDT

There wouldn't be any, as Dex would no longer be Dex v Dex. 20 Dex would get you 50 pth, Trianing more Dex would just give you more pth.

As to misses, not sure.

Maybe pth could be changed to having a cap at 75%-90%. Taking a cap of 90%, 150 pth would give you 90% to land your first hit, with 60% to land a second.

If you want a Dex comparison, why not change Dex into some form of -pth like DBs get.

Oh, the messing around we could have with this! :D
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