evasion is busted...or I'm a chicken (in General)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 5 2006 4:07 PM EST

+102 ELB, and +20 seekers still can't score a single hit in ANY ranged round
against The Space Knights, I can't tell you what his evasion is trained to yet, but whatever it is I don't see how it's supposed to be negating 160 PTH and 160k dex in all three ranged rounds...

At least let the minion behind the evading minion get clobbered...

bartjan November 5 2006 4:26 PM EST

About 300k evasion would do it.
Welcome to the "paperweight club".

PirateKing November 5 2006 4:27 PM EST

I can hit Space Knights in 2 and sometimes all 3 of the ranged rounds... my AxBow is only +32 and my DX is only 103k(with ToA bonus added) I wonder if some other factor is working against you, novice.

bartjan November 5 2006 4:29 PM EST

Scrapyard, are you targeting the same minion as novice does?
He's using seekers, you an axbow...

PirateKing November 5 2006 4:35 PM EST

Ah... That's it. It is bypassing mr. evasion there. I guess my AxBow is not as "totally worthless" as some make it out to be then. :P

AdminNightStrike November 5 2006 5:06 PM EST

He's down at #47 in the evasion rankings. His dex is also 20. That's pretty weird, dude.

QBJohnnywas November 5 2006 6:00 PM EST

He's a member of the Clan Beer Garden....we have a bit of a history with evasive talents.

I notice your char doesn't have much in the way of dex at all, not even with that haste you're building. My little UC guy - with a UC of (27) - can evade your archer.

Don't be forgetting about evasion's defensive dex...although I'm the wrong person to start quoting numbers ....where's GL when we need him...

But it is fun to see my little UC guy dodging your guy!

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 5 2006 6:04 PM EST

I'm at 170k, which while small, isn't bad for my mpr...
without haste (which is in effect in this fight) I'm at 80k.

It's not much, but it used to give double hits in ranged...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 5 2006 6:07 PM EST

The Paladin missed Diabolik
The Cleric missed Diabolik

The Paladin missed Diabolik
The Cleric missed Diabolik

The Paladin missed Diabolik
The Cleric shot Diabolik [13932]

that's a +102 ELB...

I like how my chanter using the +10 SoD gets a hit in...makes me feel great.

QBJohnnywas November 5 2006 6:10 PM EST

Evasion used to give 2/3 of it's level in defensive dex as well...I think that's changed now - dunno the numbers...but even 2/3 of a 300k evasion would give his guy 200k in dex during ranged...

I'm not sure I'd call it busted, just a close (kissing close) cousin of the VB in the how to nullify millions in NW instantly stakes...

bartjan November 5 2006 6:12 PM EST

The 300k figure is my guestimation on how much would be needed. The actual evasion in this case is much lower.

QBJohnnywas November 5 2006 6:13 PM EST

And don't forget the evasion bonus in ranged - 3x evasion in round 1, 7/3 in round two, and 5/3 in round 3.

Even if defensive dex is the same that means his evasion guy has a lot more (defensive) dex than you during those rounds.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 5 2006 6:14 PM EST

I understand that part of it, and if he does indeed have 300k trained into evasion on that minion, of course I should miss him (and [have a chance to] hit the minion behind him). But I thought UC only got creepy effective with the Gi on...now I'm getting thumped by baby UC.

QBJohnnywas November 5 2006 6:18 PM EST

Lol, first the VB, now evasion...you're having a great year!

horseguy001 November 5 2006 8:03 PM EST

yay a thread with my NCB in it :D

Well right now the evasion wall is at 168k with an effect of 51. I am sticking the RoE on him for awhile now since I am happy with my tank atm...so the evasion coupled with EC will continue to grow :D

The only problem I have right now is mage teams...but I think the RoS will make that problem go away when I decide to slap it on the one enchanter.

Slashundhack [We Forge Our Own Stuff] November 6 2006 12:44 AM EST

I'm confused does novice cluck or ?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 6 2006 3:31 AM EST

:D To shed some more light on this, I think we need to ask Horseguy to post his Evasion and EC scores. ;)

But first. Nov, you have little dex 87K and make this up with training EC. EC doesn't reduce Evasion.

Pegasus has EC trained (to reduce your dex), and Evasion. His evasion is boosted by his AoF.

Evasion gives it's full level as un reducable defensive Dex. So with that plus your dex being reduced by EC, I doubt you would have a hope hitting him in the dex v dex attacks.

That leaves your PTH versus his Evasion Effect. We'd really need to know the size of his Evasion (Pnar Pnar) to see if there's anything wrong here. ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 6 2006 3:33 AM EST

>_< Missed Horse's post above..

And missed out the recent Evasion changes.. LOL!

Right, you have an effective PTH of 162.

That should leave you with 101 PTH, but in range, Evasion is x3 for the first round, and x 2 for the seconds.

Flamey November 6 2006 6:38 AM EST

somehow the wiki doesn't agree there, GL :P

"Evasion is more effective during ranged combat: x3 during the first ranged round, x7/3 during the 2nd, and x5/3 during the last."

did i miss something, why is the much smaller SoD hitting and not the ELB?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 6 2006 7:13 AM EST

Meh, got the last Eva change wrong. ;) But you get the point. :P

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 6 2006 9:53 AM EST

I have two points with this asinine post;

1. There might be a problem with how evasion is working, if not then we need another skill to make it not the default choice, or better yet a real down side.
Am I the only one who wants to see missed shots at evading minions have a chance to hit minions in the rear. At this point evasion is twice as strong as EC ever was, and cheaper too.

2. The ELB has such nasty penalties already that even token evasion
leaves it useless. Why not at least post the real penalties?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 6 2006 10:07 AM EST

GL: My EC is base, his is lower than 10k, they make no difference at all.

I have ~185k dex counting haste, after his massive EC, that puts me 10k ahead of his evasion on my tank. It's just too easy to slap evasion on an enchanter and completely negate all but the the biggest ToA tanks, (who survive only because they have the only tat that hasn't been made useless).

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 6 2006 11:00 AM EST

That would make his Defensive Dex 280K in the last round. Versus your 175K.

It's the Ranged changes to Evasion that has given it it's power.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 6 2006 11:03 AM EST

I think it's the additional penalties for the ELB that make even a single hit impossible...at least there is kind of a reason to train dex now.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] November 6 2006 11:13 AM EST

GL - I didn't think the defensive DX was multiplied in ranged, anyone know about this?

Nov - what ELB penalties?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 6 2006 11:59 AM EST

RD all we've got is;

"Evasion is now more effective during ranged combat: x4 during the first ranged round, x3 during then 2nd, and x2 during the last."

(Well, the amounts were changed)

The description just says Evasion and not "The PTH part of Evasion" so I'm assuming it's the whole skill. ;)

As for the Bow Penalties;

"Bows (with maxed out archery) now have 90% base to-hit in the 3rd round of ranged combat, except the ELB which has 100% to-hit. Odds are still slightly lower in 1st and 2nd rounds."

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 6 2006 12:52 PM EST

I'm saying that statement about the ELB not having any penalty in round 3 of ranged is incorrect somehow. from what I've seen there is a penalty to both PTH and CTH in all rounds of ranged, any evasion compounds this.

horseguy001 November 6 2006 12:53 PM EST

Well I agree that it is strange that you can't hit me on the third ranged round, since my evasion effect is roughly ~100 and my def dex would be roughly ~380k, which would seem to give some kind of chance to hit.

However, my def dex on the third round is still double your dex, so that must have some kind of profound effect on ranged combat.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 6 2006 12:55 PM EST

I could spend another 300k upping the + on the arrows to see where it is I finally start seeing hits in the third round, but seeing as I've wasted half a mil on that idea already I think I'll just give up on defensive ammo...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 6 2006 1:03 PM EST

The Paladin struck deep into Tobias with Khaos Bow [552400]
The Paladin skewered Tobias with Khaos Bow [588742]

The Paladin skewered Lindsay's familiar with Khaos Bow [433620]
The Paladin skewered Lindsay's familiar with Khaos Bow [559453]

The Paladin struck deep into Lindsay with Khaos Bow [583195]
The Paladin struck deep into Lindsay with Khaos Bow [590215]

This is with the +102 elb and +20 seekers...

know what I don't see...triple hits...that last shot is verses a 0 dex enchanter with no evasion at all...190k dex and a theoretical 160 PTH and no triple hits...

and there is no penalty to archery in round 3 of ranged...my red flabby behind there isn't!

QBJohnnywas November 6 2006 1:05 PM EST

I'd concentrate on upping your dex right now, it really is quite low considering the size of the minion. Haste does help some, but you can't rely on that all the time. Up that dex, plus I'd consider trying to get hold of some elven gear and I reckon you'll see a big difference.

Melee based tanks can afford to be slower, so long as they're strong. But to get the best out of an archer make him as fast as you can.

Otherwise steer clear of evasion.....:/

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 6 2006 1:06 PM EST

The Paladin missed Diabolik

The Paladin missed Diabolik

The Paladin skewered Diabolik with Khaos Bow [356830]

same setup, this time verses a < 30 level UC char with 40k dex...

I get a SINGLE hit in round 3...nothing is going to convince me that something isn't wrong with that...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 6 2006 1:10 PM EST

steer clear of evasion...*Chortle*

so I should avoid anyone with a score over a mil...

there might be ten people left above a mil score who aren't taking advantage of this bug yet...

Shooto November 6 2006 4:30 PM EST

Not a bug. I have a much less PTH with my Ax and I'm hitting Space Knights in all rounds. It seems that ELB are worthless now though. I am using a ToA which helps and have a much higher Dex than you though. Also, the PTH doesn't have anything to do with getting triple hits as far as I know. I thought that has to do with dexterity.

th00p November 6 2006 5:24 PM EST

In case anyone hasn't said this already: Novice, you're a chicken! Just a cooler one than Shade ;-P

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 6 2006 5:48 PM EST

Shooto: check into older threads for a better understanding of change to hit and plus to hit. Dex accounts for two hits per round, plus to hit can give (possibly) 3-4 additional hits (is there even a cap?).

Your AX isn't aiming at the same minion I am, you're hitting his tank not his evasion wall.

Adminedyit [Superheros] November 6 2006 6:06 PM EST

my ELB Malicious Intent [6x1200] (+76)
my arrows Evil Arrows [8x1] (+1)
my ToA Blessed Darkness lvl 1,586,221

bartjan could you please post the level of your evasion on Pitr.

bartjan November 6 2006 6:19 PM EST

Evasion: 310,000/250,000 (67)

Adminedyit [Superheros] November 6 2006 6:31 PM EST

thank you bartjan.

Shooto November 6 2006 6:56 PM EST

I'm using seeker bolts. I missed in the first round but hit him in the second round and he was dead by the third. However, I do usually hit him in the first round too.

Shooto November 6 2006 6:57 PM EST

To clear it up, yes, I hit Pegasus, his evasion minion.

horseguy001 November 6 2006 7:09 PM EST

Actually allow me to clear things up:

Firey Water struck deep into Slade [36049]
Slade looks clumsier!

R.I.P. Slade

You axbow targets the minion with the highest dex...which happens to be my tank. Making me think of a PL on one of my enchanters actually :P

Now because the spell check wont take any of the names in this post, I am going to type this at the bottom in an attempt to make this post long enough so I can actually post it.

Shooto November 6 2006 7:17 PM EST

Had regular bolts on at the time chief, double check next time. Give me a few minutes so I can get some BA and I'll post the log here.

Shooto November 6 2006 7:22 PM EST

Car Alarm Song takes damage from his own Magic missile (9777)!
Car Alarm Song's Magic missile hit Star [31167]
Car Alarm Song cries "GAS-O-LINE MAKES ME RUN!"
Fiery Water struck deep into Pegasus [63808]
Pegasus looks clumsier!

That was the first round of combat. The Ax drains DX, it doesn't target the person with highest DX. It only does that when regular or slayer bolts are equipped.

horseguy001 November 6 2006 7:24 PM EST

my bad,

I misread the one part of the wiki:

If there is no opponent minion with a Direct Damage Spell, then Seeker Bolt target the first opponents minion.

however, this is interesting, since there must be something really wrong with Elbows then, since I can dodge much bigger pth then that with my evasion.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 6 2006 9:22 PM EST

I'd be happy if an ELB worked as well as any other weapon, considering I'm training an exclusive skill already just to use the NW and dex I've already invested in. Increasing the damage to a silly extent and making it really hard to hit was fun in theory, but the reality is that the archery changes combined with the evasion overbuff have left me cold. Fix it!

RaptorX November 6 2006 11:37 PM EST

Seems to me an exbow has a higher hit ratio than an ELB - even if the ELB is bigger. So if you have an Axbow you can hit someone with higher DX and perhaps evasion, but with a similar NW ELB (and slayer arrows for example) - you can't.

I can't check this to be sure -- anybody have a way to compare them?

My stuff... +85 ELB and a 1.4 mill ToA. (and +105k EC also)

It seems something is wrong to me also.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 7 2006 12:42 AM EST

The Paladin missed Melkor
The Cleric missed Melkor
The Cleric absorbs damage [2500]

The Paladin missed Melkor
The Cleric hit Melkor [7981]

The Paladin missed Melkor
The Cleric shot Melkor [11207]

that's me missing with a +50 elb...and hitting with 92k less dex and a +10 SoD

no evasion in play...




AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 7 2006 2:49 AM EST

and he's hitting my JKF with a compound...now I'm sure the ELB is bugged.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 7 2006 3:15 AM EST


There's got to be a problem...

Flamey November 7 2006 3:20 AM EST

wow nov, i just attacked space knights (he is in my list)

attacked him a couple of times (twice):

2) Annihilator missed Pegasus

Annihilator missed Pegasus

Annihilator skewered Pegasus with Bow of Destruction [180601]
Annihilator cries "0wnage!!"

------ 2)

Annihilator missed Pegasus

Annihilator missed Pegasus

Annihilator struck deep into Pegasus with Bow of Destruction [153273]

this might make you cringe but my ELB is x120 and +20. and +0 arrows. and i hit the same time as you :)

DX: 367,257/262,327 maybe DX is much greater than PTH?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 7 2006 3:28 AM EST

It does seem that the answer to evasion is more dex, which I'm stoked about; we now have a good reason to train dex. However I think what I'm seeing is a bug with archery that's being exacerbated by the power of evasion.

Miandrital November 7 2006 5:01 AM EST

Based off novice's fight with Shade, I'm guessing the elbow either has massive intentional penalties, or is bugged somehow.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 7 2006 5:17 AM EST

I'd assume that the ELBow should have the least penalties out of all the Ranged wepaons, so this has got to be a bug.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 7 2006 10:43 AM EST

and since evasion isn't really busted per say (just tarded)


AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 7 2006 10:46 AM EST

This post is dedicated to my fightlist, which has started listening and is now training token evasion on chanters everywhere...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 7 2006 10:52 AM EST


Self nerfage rocks j00!

QBOddBird November 7 2006 11:41 AM EST

Evasion doesn't seem to be the problem, but rather the ELB.

A bugged Evasion doesn't explain how a +10 SoD hits that minion over a +100 ELB. That's definitely an Archery or ELBow problem.

Silatt November 7 2006 11:43 AM EST

Evasion: 138,103/121,143 (47) for Novice

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 9 2006 3:40 PM EST

I got an "I'll look into it"


AdminNightStrike November 9 2006 5:16 PM EST

From Jon?

sssimmo November 9 2006 5:38 PM EST

Nah from Santi Clause....
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001wXQ">evasion is busted...or I'm a chicken</a>