Decay: Is this something so unpopular or just plain useless? (in General)
November 24 2006 10:07 AM EST
Basically IMO, Decay is the most interesting offensive spell available in CB, because it has the potential to be the most destructive and yet the most wasteful use of experience at the same time.
Maybe it's because of this unpredictable, so it became so unpopular? I do not know the correct answer, but all I know, it can fit in all strat, but at the same time to be exp-effective, it's almost impossible. So in order to write this stuff, I trained Decay myself and just give it a try.
IMHO, it's really a good spell if you spend a lot of experience on it, but it will always be the last of anybody's new strat choice, simply because of it's inconsistent damage pattern. I would pretty much wants to suggest some changes here to more or less help it out, like how effective MM is now:
1) Link the effectiveness of Decay to enemy's HP. Decay level must not be less than 30% enemy HP to gain full effect, if lesser it'll probably be calculated retroactively like how tattoo works when it's more than char's level. This prevents Decay training getting unreasonable damage for just a small amount of investment (if they are lucky to have enemy with no AMF). We want Decay to be not just a gamble, but a real invested spell like others.
2) Decrease the starting level of Decay, maybe they can start around level 1000. So people can train Decay earlier to play with.
3) Make AMF less effective against Decay caster, maybe like 50% less effective. This will at least help the caster to live one or two more rounds, making it a more worth while strat against users with a lot of enchanters that doesn't have any HP to decrease :P
November 24 2006 10:28 AM EST
The thing about decay - apart from those who train it large to lessen the AMF effect - is that you can train it for a tiny amount of XP. I've noticed a lot of people, myself included, who train it for a certain time period when they've large single minions on their fightlist, or DM users. And then when you don't need it, it doesn't cost you much to untrain it again. So it's not necessarily unpopular, just something that you don't want to have on your team all the time.
Any change to make it less of a gamble must go hand in hand with lowering it's overall power. Because when it works, it works better than anything else in the game. Making that a reliable power instantly makes it overpowered.
Decay used to be the only counter to high AC oponents. The introduction of the VB has lessened the need for Decay.
It can't kill. You get *no* benefit from training XP into it, other than AMF protection.
At base, AMF will kill you.
It's very, very situational. That's why it isn't popular.
November 24 2006 10:48 AM EST
That's why something needs to be done :P Maybe my suggestions are too drastic, but it should be treated like a spell like others, but not something to gamble on different "situation"
BTW, it won't make it any overpowered than what it is now, except protecting others who do not train AMF and also protect the caster for a few more rounds in melee (maybe). Basically it still can't kill anything even if I train it to 10mil level, and it can still do only 10 damage to some minions with 20 hp. So I do not see the point of even talking about overpowering while a change to Decay might create more interesting strats than what it can do now
November 24 2006 10:52 AM EST
Actually with so many main damage minions now being placed at the front, decay could be the very thing that can bring them down. Of course, you have to really train it or it will be defenseless against AMF.
November 24 2006 10:56 AM EST
I am very sure those in front will be 90% chance of wearing an AOI. Unless you would like to suggest Decay to ignore that too :P
I thought AOI only affected physical attacks?
decay does ignore the AoI...
decay has been left out in the cold, now more than ever a GOOD decay mage setup could have amazing results...
The most serious problem with decay is the choice you have to make to use it, RoS gives the HP to live long enough to use it, but the ToE give them only protection against backlash. So even getting a minion with enough HP and decay to actually fight anyone with AMF is sometimes hard. Decay was at one point a key to unlocking the real end game of cb, now it's a door to hallway no one thinks about opening...
November 24 2006 11:41 AM EST
OK sorry, Decay does ignore AOI, I must have been left out of many changes hehe well just that I didn't pay too much attention.
Anyway, Decay now is too big of a gamble, even at 400k level, I think it's even better off to be a 400k AS for my setup :P But I am nonsensical as usual hehehe
That's why most people only use it at base against people who don't have AMF.
I agree that it could use a change, but forcing people to actually put experience into it to make it good will only make it worse. The one thing I'd like to see is a change in the way it interacts with AMF.
As it is now, I'd almost never consider putting it on a Wall, Mage, or Tank, simply because of the inconvenient searching for targets caused by AMF. That leaves Enchanters with little or no HP to use it, unless you feel like searching for opponents with no AMF whatsoever. But most teams have at least enough AMF to stop base decays.
November 24 2006 7:30 PM EST
The issue here is not your dilemma of using a base decay in whatever minions in your team. It's about that exact same concept people treat this spell, they learn it just for the sake of gambling against people who doesn't have AMF. No hard earned experience ever invested into it to get full effect of it's greatness. It's not even been treated like any other spells or even skills.
November 24 2006 7:36 PM EST
The main problem is keeping both your damage dealer and decay minions alive to melee. If you try to put an AoI on only the decay'er, it may survive till melee, but then it won't be able to kill anything off. Likewise, putting an AoI on other minions will mean that the decay'er will not survive. My suggestion would be to allow decay to start hitting in the last ranged round, thus making it more useful. Also, making decay more effective per point, with regards to AMF. So basically a decay of 1,000 would be treated like a fireball of 2,000 with regards to amf, or something along those lines.
November 24 2006 7:49 PM EST
Range or no range round is not the issue, that's how COC users have to go through anyway. And the AMF effectiveness is exactly what I want :P
As long as people do invest in this spell instead of just a base, it'll make more interesting strat choice than the current base only thing, which sometimes sound very unfair for the damage it can deal.
November 26 2006 1:19 PM EST
i had started a NCB, which didnt get too far because of real life stuff, but it had a good decay mage strat
-Decay mage training hp and decay with protection in front with AoI
-ToA tank with AoI and evasion
-wall with wall gear etc.
-AMF E with small AS
it was effective... decay cuts down the minion, ToA tank finishes it off then with teh wall and AS give extra hp
NK, it's all down to cost versus worth.
You put XP into FB/MM/CoC, you get increased damage out. People see a worth versus the cost.
You put more XP into Decay, you get nothing bar an ever increasing battle versus AMF.
For FB/MM/CoC, you get that AMF battle in additon to seeing something for your expenditure.
November 26 2006 10:44 PM EST
hehe I know, that's why I was planning to shout, "bring back FOD!!!!"
My point is, Decay needs to be redesigned. It doesn't need to be 1/2 HP anymore, it could be something else. But as long as it's used like other spells, I am happy for it.
My other suggestion which totally renew Decay spell:
Decay = works like MM but only in melee, has a base damage (must have lower base damage than all spells of the same level)
If minion attacked by Decay, each subsequent rounds, it will receive 1/20 damage from caster's base damage. Even after caster has fallen.
If AMF reflected portion of the damage, the caster will receive 1/20 base damage as well. It will work like a plague.
The plague damage is immune to AC + Endurance. But Decay damages will be reduced like other spells.
This will make Decay really work like Decaying :P But of course it needs to be balanced so that the net output damage will not be overpowering compared to other spells, but remember backslash from AMF damages Decay dude the same way, so it needs to be factor in for consideration.
How about having it as the front firing DD we now miss? Works like MM, single target, but hits form the front.
Decays 'special' would be that it ignores all AC/Endurance/Protection.
November 27 2006 4:51 AM EST
oh well, we'll let jon decide what to do hehe, I just hope Decay to be special but not because all of us train it with base level only :P
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