The "Perfect" Strategy! (in General)


Godpanda December 14 2006 10:27 AM EST

Did it in about 10 minutes.

MEEM

1st: FB. That's it.

2nd: DM, AS. Use RoS.

3rd: AMF, GA. Max out AMF at 330k. Mostly GA.

4th: CoC, HP. AoI, and then all the AC I can get on it.


What you all think?

I won't try to influence anyone, but I ask that you really think about it. *cough*damage dealer*cough*

QBJohnnywas December 14 2006 10:46 AM EST

Why bother with the EOs? Why not just max out AS and GA? I know AMF reduces the DD spell but if you're only going to use a small one then why not just use GA to reduce the enemy mage himself/herself?

Mmm, Coc or MM? I'd be inclined to go with MM. Use the grenade mage to bring their HP down ( and here I can see why DM would be useful) and then let the MM cut through them one by one. If they have fairly low level HP enchanters then the MM guy could actually be hitting the main minions by round 2..

(I'm starting to think that xp focused into damage dealt can actually replace enchantments, unless you're trying to be clever)

Silatt December 14 2006 10:56 AM EST

Gah, your GA is going to kill your FB minion btw, I had to drop FB because I kept killing myself with GA backlash on a 4 minion team in like 4 rounds.

QBJohnnywas December 14 2006 11:00 AM EST

That's true enough about the GA. I was too busy thinking that FB minion would have base HP. Drop the AS, move the ROS to the GA minion, just train HP on the minions you need to have. Then maybe a protection on the DM minion.

Godpanda December 14 2006 11:03 AM EST

See Johnny, thats what I thought too. Just go MM. But I used CoC biggest disability to make the strategy better.

Why let myself get bashed by GA and AMF for 3 rounds where GA does everything I need?

Let GA and AMF bash their damage dealer for 3 round. Let the FB kill an enchanter or two, and hurt the damager even more.

Then the CoC, in one round, finishes things. I don't see many strats going past 4 rounds, and even less (duh) past 5.

The AMF so low is to get a healthy .10 bonus against Hubbell. By gauranteeing some flashback, without tons of exp being used. DM to stop AS, VA and protection. That stuff will annoy me.

QBsutekh137 December 14 2006 11:12 AM EST

FB and CoC seem unlikely partners. Your CoC mage can't do anything until he is getting pummelled by splash... Splash hurts, though at least you will be diluting it with having a lot of minions with high HP. So, I'm not sure... Changing that FB to MM might help, though.

Godpanda December 14 2006 11:14 AM EST

The chances of FB living to melee: Priceless.

QBOddBird December 14 2006 11:20 AM EST

Having the FB as a MM would help in its own way, Oleander. Concentrating the damage on one minion means your CoC has fewer minions to dilute its damage come melee time.

Godpanda December 14 2006 11:22 AM EST

True, but the faster the damage dealer dies the happier this strategy is. The only way to increase the rate at which the damage dealer dies is, unfortunately, FB.

QBsutekh137 December 14 2006 11:49 AM EST

I don't understand why you want him to die so badly? Heck, I'd slap Evasion on him and leave him without an AoI...dodge the first couple rounds of ranged.

Why do you think FB is so much more damage than MM? Yes, it weeds out enchanters and such quickly, but you don't need speed if you are going four-minion, RoS... FB is for single mages who need to try to take out entire teams in one or two rounds -- it's not generally the choice for four-minion, long-lived teams.

My opinion would firmly be on using MM on that first minion, not FB.

QBJohnnywas December 14 2006 11:54 AM EST

It's a grenade mage Sut. Heavy on the damage short on life. The mage equivalent of ex shot if you like...

QBsutekh137 December 14 2006 12:47 PM EST

Yeah, I get that. That still doesn't answer the question of "why"?

Just because one _can_ do something doesn't mean one _should_ do something.

A huge, fortified castle has no need to send out kamikaze attacks, does it? Controlled, long-lasting damage is what should be used in that scenario, in my opinion.

Moddin December 14 2006 2:32 PM EST

hmm, i think AMF and GA will kill your strat and without evasion every archer team will
do it as well ... It would be a good working strat anyway (especially to start a new ncb)

and i suggest to reorder : M(AoI) EME

Godpanda December 14 2006 3:07 PM EST

MEEM or MEME?

Whats the difference with an AoI? I don't see one.

Secondly, and heres the beauty, GA and AMF will be the two things I will have to worry about the least.

See, I always kept in mind that the main weakness of mages is two two enchantments. But how can a mage get around them? Typically, they can't. They must shoot every round to win. But, with this strategy, I doubt either DD will fire more then twice... EVER. So I not overly worried about AMF or GA (dm will help with that one, to make sure AMF/GA/ arrow combination doesn't kill CoC 4th round or earlier).

ALso, someone brought up archers as a bane for this strategy. Luckily, this strategy is designed to confuse them too!.

With RoSed HP and GA and a giant kamikazee Fireballer, I keep the seekers and archers from my mage for at least one, hopefully two rounds. At that point, if they can kill my CoC mage in the last round of ranged, I never had a chance anyway. Not fullproof, but I take 1-2 rounds less arrow damage then ANY OTHER mage teams main mage.

Now sut, I understand your question. I thought of it myself for awhile. Why not just try to preserve the FB mage? Firstly, preserving a mage is next to impossible already. Also, the main thing that kills mages (AMF) is a pain. So I said, why worry about experience dilution on a minion? If its going to do in 2 rounds anyways, does it matter whether its -1000000 or -10? Still dead. You say evasion. Evasion helps during ranged mostly and drains tons of exp. I would rather get the extra damage in 1-2 rounds then have 1-4 rounds but a possible massive splash in the 4th. I don't need damage from own minions.

So I said, just grenade them. This entire strategy (all of it) drains soooo much.

FB= Makes them waste AMF and GA, seekers, ranged round, dilutes enemy FB and exshot damage. 20 HP or 100k, a seeker tank still killing him. You could say the CoC suffers from all that too, but not as much as using MM would.

Then, others say to use MM on the grenade kamikazee mage. But why do I need to kill an enchanter? I have 25 rounds to do that in. Just kill the damage dealer. Use the splash from the FB to wound, GA to hurt, and the 4th round to finish it. AoI? Bring it. PL, that too. AC? What self-respecting damage dealer uses that stuff? Protection, DMed. ToE.... uh-oh lol?

Really, I tried to make use of the best parts of everything, and make the best of an enemies strategy useless. By not worrying about Evasion, I don't get in a NW battle with tanks, which I can't hope to win.

Sorry for the length, but I actually liked the idea behind this strategy. If it's bad, I will scrap it. But as of now, I am convinced this is a pretty good strategy.

Once again, I would like to restate that proving this strategy bad will HELP me. I can't make a perfect strategy without finding the bad parts of the game.

So, to update you all:

Parts of the best strategy I am convinced are necessary:
GA
HP
4 minions (eventually, if not immediately)

ANy questions/ comments/ advice? Anything at all?


For the Improvement of Wolf:
Haven't had this in awhile, just want to make sure I still doing better. Let me know everyone.

Flamey December 14 2006 3:08 PM EST

"MEEM or MEME?

Whats the difference with an AoI? I don't see one. "

That's all I've read so far. MM is the difference. AoI ignores physical attacks, MM will still hit you, regardless of AoI.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] December 14 2006 3:40 PM EST

I think I will chime in :)

I believe the Perfect Strat must contain a tank. I believe that without a way to leverage NW properly, no strat can be perfect. I think Sut will agree with me, that in its current state, a well funded, well MPR tank team cannot be touched.

I also believe that without either Decay or EC, most tank teams will beat this strat. Ok maybe not most, I know you will emphasize GA, and the RoS will protect it some, but it will not be as effective as you think. And a "wall" with 10K DX will look pretty tall compared to your line up of 20 DX enchanters and mages.

There are lots of ways to stop mages. There are only a few ways to stop tanks.

Is it a good strat, sure, if you do not want to invest much USD in the game, it could even be a great one. It should earn money, it should have a good PR to Score ratio. But I stick by my statement that without a well funded tank of some sort it wont be perfect ;)

Moddin December 14 2006 4:17 PM EST

<<
MEEM or MEME?

Whats the difference with an AoI? I don't see one.
>>
it has been already said: MM is
so if you want to waste your FB mage > MMEE is your choice

<<
Secondly, and heres the beauty, GA and AMF will be the two things I will have to worry about the least.
>>
and I don't think so ... the maximum xp in your CoC will be 1/4 of earned XP (4 minions)
your Mage is going to kill himself when facing AMF and GA, especially when
fighting against other teams with 3 or 4 minions

<<
ALso, someone brought up archers as a bane for this strategy. Luckily, this strategy is designed to confuse them too!.
>>
this actually could work out for your CoC Mage, but not against seekers
and
RoSed HP may come out less then you think

in my team the cast is 307162 HP on 4 minions
(ABS level with and without RoS Ablative Shield: 845,872/512,705
RoS lvl 680k)
with haste and GS around 400k my archers hit 300k - 400k damage per shot ...
you can do the math ...

but seriously ... your strat is very good but not "perfect"
wanne know why ?

there is no such thing as a perfect strat ;-)
if there would be one ... it would get nerfed!

But don't let your spirit down !
one advice : if you find the perfect strat, dont tell anyone ;-)

QBsutekh137 December 14 2006 5:15 PM EST

MM on the kamikaze mage helps against ToEs, too. remember, the more you "overwhelm" a ToE, the more damage you land. ToEs foil FB very nicely (because the damage is diluted and therefore smaller), as does an RoBF to a smaller extent. I'll say it again, unless the DD is MASSIVE, and you simply _have_ to take out entire teams at once (due to having lesser minions), MM is every bit as attractive as FB when all points are weighed.

Sefton, I think this strategy can do well against tanks because of three things: large HP, GA, and four-minions (that goes for any RoS-based strategy -- RoSes are tough). I would agree with you, tanks are tough too. But they are only tough for me because I don't have the kill slots. Actually, this strategy only has one extra slot, but that makes a big difference, especially with CoC bringing up the rear.

I thought of one more problem with "kamikaze" minions -- you can't control killing yourself. For example, how would this strategy fair against a team that is all MM? Your kamikaze would be last man standing, and would be roasting his brethren in melee. *smile* All-MM teams aren't as rare as you think...

Tyriel [123456789] December 14 2006 6:08 PM EST

"All-MM teams aren't as rare as you think..."

Shh! I want to farm him! :D

I was thinking of starting a team much like this for my next NCB, actually, to see how it does in reality as opposed to theoretically.

Godpanda December 14 2006 7:05 PM EST

Wow, I am surprised I getting good feedback instead of just flaming.


First and foremost, why the hell can't I remember that AoI doesn't stop magic damage? Why, why, why!? Agreed. MMEE.

Second, if someone wants to use solid MM teams with no AMF or GA, then they can take 3 rounds of FB instead of 1. Remember, it WILL die before melee, gauranteed.

Also, I will think of MM. But right now... I just don't see it HELPING. How does killing a 20 HP enchanter help this strategy at all? Please, I trying to get it, but I'm just not.

Really, I think I underestimate the awesome power GA will hold over tanks. You all say I underestimate the HP I will have on this team. Give me a few moments, and I get some facts one way or the other

Godpanda December 14 2006 7:45 PM EST

One Word:



PoisoN

noneedforthese December 14 2006 8:16 PM EST

Uh, wait, MMEE??
Am I the only 4 minion mage team that gets slain my half-million damage arrows?
Unless you have plan to dodge ranged rounds, your CoC mage is about as useful as a minion with all it's xp untrained... well, that's my opinion anyway. ;P
Against mage teams, well you should own them granted that you don't kill yourself first :D

noneedforthese December 14 2006 8:17 PM EST

oh wait no, i'm retarded. you meant AoI on the CoC.
I take that back kekeke

MissingNo December 14 2006 8:40 PM EST

Would anyone be willing to use their NCB to start this strat and show us for sure how effective it is? I'm still saving up money for my NCB. :P

QBsutekh137 December 14 2006 11:49 PM EST

PoisoN, indeed...

For one, he would mince the above strategy, or at least make the FB idea silly...he attacks all from the back. Like I said, MM teams are different, and are immune to AoIs.

NWO also shows a good use of AS/GA, even without using an RoS.

If you change the FB mage to MM, then you are MM/CoC, with the bonus of huge AS/GA because of the RoS. You will have decent ranged attacks, picked up by CoC after that. I am not sure how strong everything would be because of the four minion dilution (I haven't played anything more than two minions for long in the whole of CB2 -- Cougars was sold right after hiring minion 4). Maybe rejigger as a three minion team? MME? That loses a bit of the leverage of AS/GA/RoS, though...

muon [The Winds Of Fate] December 15 2006 12:07 AM EST

Hmm, not necessarily.

If it is MMEE with the order:
CoCM, FBM, E, E
and the CoC mage has AoI then MM will still have to chew its way through three minions.

Also, arrows and whatnot are not going to bother the AoI'd mage, (waste a couple of points of HP more than the FB mage and you have instant seeker protection with this strat).

As oleander says, it is a viable strat... but... there are a couple of things wrong with it. Firstly, your DM is going to almost useless... at that sort of xp dilution it is barely going to touch most teams' AS. Secondly, your AS even RoS'd is going to be fairly low, and susceptible to other teams' DM. Thirdly, your GA decreases in usefulness in direct proportion to the number of hits your minions have... and as has been shown, you don't have many.

PoisoN would chew through your team, not because of MM necessarily, but because of the fact that his DM would nerf your entire team. Any team that has a decent amount of DM trained would most likely own you up...

But all in all, a nice strat, and you have managed to do the one thing that most mages wish for: a way to dilute the effect of seekers and AMF without diluting the effectiveness of the team... except against DM trainers.

Good work, keep the strats coming, ole.

Flamey December 15 2006 1:10 AM EST

As I was reading this thread, I was thinking this:

"Hmm, not necessarily.

If it is MMEE with the order:
CoCM, FBM, E, E
and the CoC mage has AoI then MM will still have to chew its way through three minions. "


Muon, find me a team that can DM this: Ablative Shield: 1,160,821/595,253 (580,420)

at 700k-ish MPR. Please do, I've never had my AS dispelled on an attacking fight.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 15 2006 5:37 AM EST

Agreeing with a lot of the above.

If your team doesn't use a weapon, it loses out on free 'power' from your WA.

There is no reason to use more than one DD on a team, unless you're using base decays.

Godpanda December 15 2006 10:00 AM EST

Really, I think the FB is what makes this strategy useable. The spread will help alot, it will absorb seekers for a round or two, and hurt the damage dealer.


I trying to get across that the point of this strategy is to destroy the damage dealer. After that, it's all a joke.
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