Why is this a 'Safe Topic'? (in General)


QBOddBird December 29 2006 5:38 PM EST

Barney (or OpVines) just brought this topic up via PM, and we discussed it....and I am curious.

Is it or is it not allowed to talk about alcohol in the Chat?

I'm asking about this because I am a ChatOp whose job is to enforce pre-existing rules in chat. I want clarification on those pre-existing rules from someone with a position such that I can point back to this topic when my judgement is criticized and say 'the answer, as shown here is no/yes.' I don't like saying "that's just how it is". I like consistency.


See, talking about drinking or a problem with alcoholism simply doesn't seem like a PG topic to me. Now, don't get me wrong - personally, I have nothing against talking about alcohol, alcoholic beverages, or anything of that nature; rather, this is more about consistency. Why kick for PG-13 topics that are, say, sexually related if we aren't going to kick for PG-13 topics that are substance-related?

It simply seems to be a 'safe topic' with no other cause other than that it is a popular and socially-acceptable topic, both amongst players, ops, and admins. I don't see how that should give it a category of its own. If you are going to adhere to one rule strictly, then do so to them all.

And if you say "well u r an Op so why havent u been kicking 4 it LOL!!1one" then I will. Every time. Consistency.

I also understand that this may not the only area in which there is debate and could possibly be improvement, but one step at a time.

But I want an answer. Is it acceptable?

MissingNo [Battle Royale] December 29 2006 5:48 PM EST

I still don't know how you got "Barney" from "Jimmy".

My opinion doesn't matter much, but I believe it's unacceptable. Almost every single day there's a large discussion where many people talk about their addiction to alcohol like it's some huge joke. The point of the PG rule is to avoid exposing kids to even minor curse words, yet it's completely fine to come in the chatroom and see endless lines of texts about drinking alcohol. Some people even come in there completely drunk then talk about alcohol.

I'm a hypocrite because I've talked about alcohol in the chat before but really, I don't think it should be allowed. There's a reason there's some type of age restriction before a person is allowed to consume alcohol in, I believe, every single country. So if only adults are supposed to be consuming alcohol, why is it considered PG?

AdminG Beee December 29 2006 5:55 PM EST

Talk about it in a grown-up and responsible manner and it's cool as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway, I don't think we have any under 5's playing CB and that's the age limit for drinking the stuff in Scotland.

We bring them up fast here :)

AdminNightStrike December 29 2006 5:58 PM EST

......Part of my soul just died after reading that article, G...........

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 29 2006 6:07 PM EST

"While no-one below the age of 18 is allowed to buy alcohol, children can be given drink in the home from the age of five"

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] December 29 2006 6:16 PM EST

That is the law throughout the UK, there are high age limits on purchasing tobacco and alcohol products but permitted consumption in private is from the age of 5.
I'm pretty sure that most countries, at least in Europe have similar guidelines which in my opinion make this topic not considerable for the 'is it PG?' discussion.
I do, however, believe that like every topic it should be monitored for context. Being drunk and overly merry in chat isn't a problem in my eyes but there should be a line drawn between that and blatantly advertising that people should do it.

QBsutekh137 December 29 2006 7:15 PM EST

I once lost a bet to a fellow who insisted it was entirely lawful to give alcohol to ANY child in a household (within the household). He said it was OK, and he was right. He darted the code onto our dartboard, stating clearly that "alcoholic beverages may be given to any child in the household for medicinal or beverage purposes".

That's in Iowa. In The United States.

I assume it can't be abused...if child services comes in and you are going beyond "beverage purposes" (i.e. getting your child drunk), that would be considered abuse. Myself, I remember tasting anything my parents were drinking as far back as I can (coffee, beer, port wine, whiskey...)

As far as chat... If you are going to say that people can't talk about drinking, then let's start a list of what would have to be forbade on the grounds of it not being a safe habit:

-- smoking
-- speeding
-- eating lots of red meat (heart disease kills more folks than cigarettes or alcoholism)
-- not exercising
-- piercings (hey, it could get infected!)
-- tattoos (hey, it could get infected!)
-- slipping in the bathtub
-- leaving the house (you might get hit by a bus!)
-- getting out of bed in the morning

I think I have made my point. But what do I know, I'm drunk. *smile*

TH3 C0113CT0R December 29 2006 7:24 PM EST

hmmm... I like your Pic....lol

QBsutekh137 December 29 2006 7:26 PM EST

Oh, it's much better now, I just haven't had a chance to get the picture updated. *smile*

AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] December 29 2006 7:44 PM EST

I think you should add WoW, Programming, and Driving to that list sut.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 29 2006 7:48 PM EST

I play WoW drunk. ;)

While eating red meat.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 29 2006 8:02 PM EST

what exactly is WoW? oh... world of warcraft?

Unappreciated Misnomer December 29 2006 8:37 PM EST

thats not the point, do as you want, stories of substance abuse should be left out, will give the younger more impressionable ideas, but ideas are good, right?

"
_________________
Disclamer

Warning : Anything mentioned in the above statement is purely fictional non sense and should not be viewed by ANYONE !"

Adminedyit December 29 2006 10:48 PM EST

Hi, my name is Ed and I'm an alco.... oops wrong group. :8^)

Silatt December 29 2006 10:56 PM EST

I will admit that the "proud to be an alcoholic" mentality is a something that irks me. My dad was an alcoholic, it's part of the reason he died, besides being sprayed with agent orange. Alcohol itself, isn't something that should be deemed UN-PG, although your stories of being up all night while "totally smashed" etc etc, aren't necessarily something appropiate for chat Some people maybe battling alcoholism theirselves, and being involved with people that continually praise the subject could be a step closer to a relapse. I just ask that you fully consider what you type and what effects it may have, not only on you, but the "community".

QBOddBird December 29 2006 11:12 PM EST

From Wikipedia:

"Ethanol is a drug, with potential for overdose or toxic poisoning if taken in excessive quantities. Alcoholism, the physiological or psychological dependency on ethanol, is one of the most common drug addictions (caffeine causes chemical dependency, but not the mental longing known as addiction) in the world."

I just don't understand considering a drug to be PG. Granted, it is a widely popular and socially acceptable drug, but it is a mind-altering substance nonetheless.


But I will go for G_Beee's answer, that it is acceptable chat so long as it is discussed in a grown-up and responsible manner. =)


Thank you for answering my question. ^_^

Gunny Pew Pew [Red Permanent Assurance] December 29 2006 11:27 PM EST

Usually G is in np when drinking is brought out. Happened some hours before this post ending with his daughter playing with Lara Croft. This proves some things are worse than drinking and sometimes you need a drink. Kidding aside it's a safe topic until excessive/obsessive/obstructive of chat. Ops, or anyone, can go on with this colorful use of the bubbly beverage till they see a stopping point or others say stop. Drinking age and views are different world over so can't ban talk on a drink sanctioned by religion.
*Do not quote or re-issue part of the previous statement which can be far more offensive than 2 martinis for little Susie*
Don't like alcohol, don't talk about it. If you feel others talk too much about the drink at one time voice your say then and there. Just don't be a jerk over the mentioning of a substance more universal than pencils.

MissingNo [Battle Royale] December 29 2006 11:31 PM EST

Gun, with that same logic, we should be able to talk about illegal drugs. There are different laws for different parts of the world and as long as it's appropriate, that means I should be able to talk about drugs, no? Why can we talk about alcohol and not about drugs?

QBsutekh137 December 30 2006 12:00 AM EST

I am not proud to be an alcoholic...because I'm not an alcoholic. I also think drugs should be legalized, so, I don't have a problem wirth anything. But I understand the personal things folks have ben through, and I wouldn't sit there talking about all the alcohol I had consumed to someone who had just lost someone due to alcoholism. Just like I wouldn't talk about parachutes with someone who had just lost someone else due to skydiving. That's basic sensitivity. I'm not sure it has anything to do with with "policy".

House December 30 2006 12:41 AM EST

Parenting is for parents and chatting is for chat rooms. How many more rules are going to be made? Do we really want to usher in the Big Brother era that quickly?

MissingNo [Battle Royale] December 30 2006 12:46 AM EST

The issue is consistency. I don't care if we're allowed to talk about alcohol or not. But if we are, I think it's fair that we should be able to talk about drugs. And if we're not able to talk about drugs, we shouldn't be able to talk about alcohol.....

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] December 30 2006 1:08 AM EST

I see no problem with consistency, one is legal and one isn't so why should they be bunched in the same category all of a sudden just because it concerns chat?

MissingNo [Battle Royale] December 30 2006 1:19 AM EST

Ugh, I'm tired of repeating things over and over. Legality of drugs differs from region to region. And on top of that, the rule has to do with PG, not the legality of it. I would think that generally, people agree that kids shouldn't drink alcohol, which should mean no talking about it. Isn't that why sex isn't allowed to be talked about?

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] December 30 2006 1:39 AM EST

Drugs are illegal in enough places to be considered a common no-no. Sex is widely illegal up until a certain age.
Alcohol on the other hand is allowed to be given to children in the safety of their homes, a reasonable number of people wouldn't let their children drink to excess but enough at least let them try it to discourage large underage drinking.
Practically everyone I knew had at least had a shandy by the time they were 14 or 15 but hardly any of them started doing any real drinking until they were 17 (the legal purchasing age here is 19).
So to use sex as your argument concerning differences between legality and 'PG' is a rather moot point when you actually pay attention to the semantics of it all.

MissingNo [Battle Royale] December 30 2006 3:13 AM EST

Please tell me why it's called a drinking age restriction if it's not a drinking age restriction. It's not a moot point at all, because both have age restrictions on them. I hate to tell you, but just because a lot of people do it doesn't make it legal. Hence, the drug problem that politicians are trying to eradicate here in the United States. Then, what's the difference? The difference is that one is allowed in chat and the other isn't.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] December 30 2006 3:40 AM EST

Drinking age restriction is for the actual purchase of alcohol not the consumption, the same with tobacco products.
I never said that legality comes from popularity, I said that they have done it because it is perfectly acceptable to do so.
Throughout many European countries people drink from the age of around 10 at their evening meal, it is a custom and not against the law in the slightest.
The UK does not have the same culture but it is still perfectly within the law to allow anyone within your responsibility to drink within the household from the age of 5.
America also allows private consumption.
Illegal to sell direct does not mean illegal to consume so I still cannot see any real factual approach to your 'legality' approach.

MissingNo [Battle Royale] December 30 2006 3:48 AM EST

Right. That makes total sense. So I guess I'm gonna grab my dad's beer tomorrow and walk around in public drinking it. Why, I didn't buy it. I'm only consuming it. I should be fine, right? I believe it's a general rule of thumb that you can do anything within the privacy of your household as long as no one finds out about it. And so what? Some cultures have girls getting married and starting families at a very young age, what does that mean? And they teach human anatomy at a young age here in the US, but what does that mean? Are we allowed to talk about it in the chat? No. I'm not saying the 2 things are identical, but it's my opinion that they're close enough that they should both have the same ruling, hence, my problem with the consistency. And I can't be the only one who feels this way, as OB was intrigued by it enough to start a thread about it.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] December 30 2006 4:07 AM EST

But this is a thing where even if the law enforcers did know that you were doing it in your own home they couldn't do a thing about it.
I also know full well that even if an adult were to walk around the streets downing alcohol they would be pulled over by a policeman if one saw them.
It isn't even like I am coming from a minority viewpoint, yes some countries have lax laws regarding sex but the majority of the world actually allow for consumption of alcohol within the home, it's not remotely close to the 'if they don't know then they can't do anything' mentaility.
Law is law, regardless of how you try and twist it. If it was only a small section of the world then I could see it as being a one off but when practically the whole of Europe as well as North America allow it and likely a large number of African and Asian countries also then why should law and common practice be overruled by your ntion of 'well I shouldn't do it outside'?
When you are old enough to fully understand the concept of what is lawful and acceptable and what is not then you are likely to realise that your case is less substantial, yes there are issues regarding moral judgement but those should be left to ourselves and not be forced upon others in a relatively free chatroom.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 30 2006 7:56 AM EST

Ulq, you're missing here that it's supervised drinking, at home, under adult supervision.

Oh, and as for alcohol being un PG. Go tell that to Duff Beer and the Simpsons. ;)

AdminNightStrike December 30 2006 10:25 AM EST

GL, he's not missing that at all. He's just not talking about it, because that's not the point. The whole point of this post stems from the fact that certain things are allowed and other things aren't, and the differentiation between that seems to be what is enjoyed by those in charge.

Alcohol is not a PG topic for the same reason that smoking dope isn't a PG topic. The only difference is that a lot of people in the CB community drink alcohol, and thoroughly enjoy it, and thoroughly enjoy talking about it and bragging about it. There's countless posts from various people of the nature "blah blah blah, whee, I'm drunk!" You yourself, GL, have done this more often than you haven't. This very thread has minor examples of that. G Beee is always referencing being drunk or drinking or something of that nature. It's common, it's widespread, and that's the reason it's accepted -- not because it's ok, but because everyone does it.

If all of those people that like to brag about their alcohol endeavors were instead bragging about their sexual endeavors of the previous weekend, then that'd be allowed to. s/sex/pot. (That means substitute sex with pot, and apply the same logic).

What is comes down to is that you either keep everything on the table, or everything under the table. Frankly, I personally feel that censoring the chat for anything because people are in there who are 14 is beyond ludicrous. However, if you're going to do it, then stop doing it halfway and be complete about it. Keep chat about universal topics that aren't offensive. Don't just create and enforce rules that befit you, the admin. Do it consistently and thoroughly, or don't do it at all.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] December 30 2006 10:26 AM EST

The Bahamas is an interesting place when you look at young drinkers.

Barbados 18 Those aged 11-18 are allowed to consume alcohol provided they are with an anteater.

Either somebody has been messing around with wikipedia or that is one strange place.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 30 2006 10:29 AM EST

discussions of illegal activities are consistently kept out of chat (or at least should be)...things that are not illegal are fair game within the pg rule set...not too difficult to understand really

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] December 30 2006 10:41 AM EST

Again NS, you also miss the same point that Ulq did, there is a huge difference in that to 90%+ of the younger audience here sex and drugs are illegal while drinking alcohol technically is not.

AdminNightStrike December 30 2006 11:03 AM EST

I didn't miss that point at all. In fact, that's exactly what I've been saying -- since to enough people, alcohol is socially acceptable, then it passes. That doesn't make it right, that doesn't make it PG. That just makes it socially acceptable by enough people.

That's a bogus way to determine what's acceptable in chat.

To novice: As has already been identified, what's legal and not differs from region to region. Heck, in some places, murder is legal. Should we be allowed to talk about ways to kill people?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 30 2006 11:05 AM EST

It's Jon's living room, and what is legal there that matters...and always has.

MissingNo [Battle Royale] December 30 2006 11:47 AM EST

I don't believe Jon ever said it was alright to talk about alcohol in the chatroom.

QBOddBird December 30 2006 11:51 AM EST

*shrugs* It doesn't matter to me.


I asked for an answer from someone with a position such that I can point back to this topic when it comes up - and I got one from Beee.


So as far as I'm concerned now, it is acceptable. =)

AdminG Beee December 30 2006 12:29 PM EST

I didn't sat it was "acceptable". I said, "Talk about it in a grown-up and responsible manner and it's cool as far as I'm concerned."
That goes for a whole host of topics in CB chat.

Rules are for the Governments to put in place. CB runs fine with next to no rules but a whole host of common sense :p

If in doubt, refer to the FAQ.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] December 30 2006 12:42 PM EST

"I don't believe Jon ever said it was alright to talk about alcohol in the chatroom."

Did he say talking about neutering cats was acceptable?

No you just assume any convo is allowed, just dont go out of control and start an un-PG conversation...

I believe it should be allowed, just keep it PG, not that hard... for most people.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 30 2006 12:43 PM EST

"To novice: As has already been identified, what's legal and not differs from region to region. Heck, in some places, murder is legal. Should we be allowed to talk about ways to kill people?"

;)

I kill enough people in CB NS.

But going back to your post, what is PG then? If beer and drinking wasn't, why is it, and smoking shown in things like the Simpsons? Unless that family cartoon isn't PG...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 30 2006 12:45 PM EST

"The BBFC permits the following within the bounds of the PG certificate:

Theme: More serious issues may be featured, eg crime, domestic violence, racism (providing nothing in their treatment condones them).
Language: Mild bad language only.
Nudity: Natural nudity, with no sexual context.
Sex: Sexual activity may be implied, but should be discreet and infrequent. Mild sexual references and innuendo only.
Violence: Moderate violence, without detail, may be allowed - if justified by its setting (eg historic, comedy or fantasy).
Imitable techniques: No glamorisation of realistic, contemporary weapons. No detail of fighting or other dangerous techniques.
Horror: Frightening sequences should not be prolonged or intense. Fantasy settings may be a mitigating factor.
Drugs: No references to illegal drugs or drug use unless entirely innocuous. "

Alcohol, while restricted, isn't illegal. therefore, it's not un PG.

MissingNo [Battle Royale] December 30 2006 1:04 PM EST

GL, with that logic, we should be able to talk about sex. "[Sex], while restricted, isn't illegal. therefore, it's not un PG."

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] December 30 2006 1:07 PM EST

Alcohol comes under the drug heading, sex comes under the sex heading which if you read would explain that sex is classed as un-PG unless highly innocuous and non-descriptive.
That is why innuendo has always been fine in forums and chat, non-specific comments which can be taken one way or another.

MissingNo [Battle Royale] December 30 2006 1:16 PM EST

Alright. I see. So legal drugs can be talked about. Alright, that means I have the right to talk about being high from shooting oxycodone into my veins. Why? It's legal. It's restricted, but it's still given to minors. If I'm not allowed to talk about it, then it's inconsistent.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] December 30 2006 1:18 PM EST

And you really think a child between the ages of 10 and 12 are going to know what you are on about?

MissingNo [Battle Royale] December 30 2006 2:08 PM EST

Does it matter if they know? It's legal, even for kids. So that must mean it's PG.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 30 2006 2:30 PM EST

You could talk about getting high on cough mixture for all it matters...

Oh and Pnar Pnar, that's a lovely pair! ;)

Gunny Pew Pew [Red Permanent Assurance] December 30 2006 3:35 PM EST

"Why can we talk about alcohol and not about drugs?" Before you even typed that "can't ban talk on a drink sanctioned by religion." Think that one over and don't qoute.
Realize what morals/maturity/responsibilities are applied and separate alco and other drug use.
Drugs are illegal in most countries. A ounce of beer is not. Being drunk in many situations can be illegal and exposing chat to such tells could be against "policy" and warned same as drugs. Especially if drunk at the time.
Biggest differences between are effect, how much needed for that effect, and the consequences. Don't think purely on the law for this.
Alcohol is noted as being benefical to ours bodies and the process has been around since 6000 BC. Opium output started in we'll say the 17th century, is also used in good drugs such as sedatives and painkillers. The name means drunken mind in fact. Both have a use in times of pain and bleeding. Then again you can't smoke Crown Royal. Make a list of illegal drugs that the world has a problem with and are Truely helpful. Stuck with alco and weed right? Both have medical uses, both have horrible brands flooting from quality and quanity being used to invoke the needed punishment if caught. Please obvserve societies' use to overuse of each substance. The time of existance of each drug amoung us, the studies, the systems, preventive messures, where a greater majority stands, etc.

Now to the real issues. Where we stand.
Obviously the community accepts the discussion of alco in chat to a point. The people have spoken.
Why might I get away with mentioning other said drugs? Because of terminology and use there of in the moral standard. Even then they can be editted out because any sub-admin or admin feels they should. Which is the established enforcement of the "policy" anyways whether you like it or not.
The laws of the Jonocracy are morally bound if not founded on common sense. Would talking of funny, yet cool, things that happened on acid infront of minors, if there was an age requirement, be acceptable under this? No. Neither is talk of drunk behavior if not to warn or apply a moral of the story at the end because the sooner or later the kids can drink and will drink. Then again I'm not an op.
Sex can be an entirely different issue. Is addictive, stories be had, and can end in about the same amount personal harm as drugs or drinking if not all at once. Diseases, pregnancy, weird smells, so on. Intercourse is meant for reproduction not filler for a boring day. If you talk about hooking up better be moving along to something productive or it's the same as drugs and drunken behaviour. We don't talk about sex directly, drinking in NP in general, or drugs at all for more reasons than these while playing.
People of chat may joke around and express an interest in drinking because they can. What else is new. If there was anything to complain about would be that our supervisors do the same. Ops are people too(I'm told) sorry they can't be nazis 24/7.

To the root of the matter. OpVines you need to shut up. No joke what so ever.
You've come in NP before and picked fights with me and others for little or no reason without a conception of understanding beyond claiming some form of righteous godhood for yourself that no one else can see behind a fog of arrogance. That's my job. If this topic continues I request you dowse your body in Everclear because it's flame on baby. You keep stupid things like this going for what value beyond time consumption? Felt the need to waste my time(waiting for BA) to explain in incomplete parts what you refuse to let in while propeling an opinion which seemlessly has no principle other than to further the arguement.
Aside from some troll we have agreed alcohol is acceptable in chat to a degree. Ruling stands as it always did. May this be the finale post and last straw of this thread.

MissingNo [Battle Royale] December 30 2006 4:46 PM EST

Gun, if you're going to try to insult me on a personal level on a thread, at least get things straight. I am argumentative, yes, but keep in mind, it takes at least two people to have an argument. But of course, it's human nature to completely ignore our roles in conflicts and just blame other people. And it's a waste of time? What kind of logic is that? It's a topic that affects the entire game and how stupid are you if you think it's a waste of time to discuss something this big? And that is the point, Jon makes the rules. But it doesn't seem to have flashed in your mind that Jon never said talking about alcohol was acceptable in chat. Instead, the admins and OPs decided it was okay and for whatever reason, you substitute the rules of the administrators with the rules of Jonathon. Oh, and to counter your illogical religion claim, many religions accept the use of illegal drugs because it can bring about spirituality. Peyote is associated with Native Americans because it's a part of their religion and culture. I don't know what the exact name of the religion is, but there's a Christian-based religion that endorses the use of marijuana. I should be able to then talk about marijuana because you can't ban talk about something sanctioned about religion, right?

You want to talk about being a troll? I've never told anyone to kill themselves or light themselves on fire because they wanted to express their opinions.

QBOddBird December 30 2006 4:50 PM EST

God i was really hoping this thread would die. There's already been an answer given and you can find someplace else to argue, like CM.


I created the topic, I got an answer from it, and now I wish to have it closed due to it going off-topic. The point was to get an answer and it has fulfilled that purpose, so there's no more need for it. Thanks!

(admin plz close it quick!)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 30 2006 7:22 PM EST

I'll drink a toast to that OB! ;)

Cheers!

Unappreciated Misnomer December 31 2006 1:14 AM EST

if talking about illegal substances should be allowed, then swearing and cussing should too, should it not?

foul language goes hand in hand with such activities

TheHatchetman December 31 2006 1:18 AM EST

howso?

Unappreciated Misnomer December 31 2006 3:19 PM EST

this is a pg game, parental guidance, do you know what that means, i know how this shold be settled, i want to hear an answer from JON himself, i ask that jon decend from the heavens to settle this puny matter so that Zoglog can get his answer or not :P

fyi: im not religious in anyway, my point of view is exactly that, my point of view. this was a very strict game back in cb1 and with time and different mentors the rules change and get bent, but there is no one who cna settle this than jon himself, if this goes unanswered by him, then you are left to your own devices and anarchy RULES!!!

keep em coming zoglog

QBOddBird December 31 2006 3:47 PM EST

You might feel that way, dpc, but that doesn't make it fact. Just because you feel that Jon is the only one who can answer this question doesn't obligate him to drop into this topic and leave an answer, especially when an admin that he has already put in charge did just that.

I am asking that you respect my wish to let this topic die, since it is answered and is simply going off-topic into a debate I didn't intend for this thread to become. Please, at least have the courtesy to do that. Thanks.

AdminJonathan December 31 2006 7:18 PM EST

Thread closed; I've had enough of wannabe lawyers for one month.
This thread is closed to new posts.