Ideas for new items (in General)
January 20 2007 1:31 PM EST
Meteoric Steel Plate 35 "Reduces Physical damage by 4.5%"
Meteoric Steel Helm 10 "Reduces PD by .015% for every plus up to 2.5%"
Meteoric Steel Shield 18 "Reduces PD by 2%"
Fire Ball Staff "1.5% increase to FB"
CoC Staff " " CoC
MM Staff " " MM
Disregard the percentages they are just for example
January 20 2007 1:35 PM EST
Meteoric sounds like AC, but even more powerful. Which would be nuts.
I'm disregarding the staffs section...
Overall, I'm giving these ideas a 1/10. They get a point because 'Meteoric' kind of sounds cool.
I recently made a thread asking for staffs for mages. It got a little support but it's not gonna happen. I really want for there to be staffs for mages as well..
January 20 2007 1:40 PM EST
Also Rings... ?
Ring of Strength
Ring of Dex
Ring of Protection
again just ideas. not saying that it would become something
..I think the last thing we are other items that increase the tanks' ST/DX by a percentage.
January 20 2007 3:37 PM EST
#9 on the FORS list
Q: Mage staffs would be cool to augment magical power!
A: private explained why this is dumb with more patience than I would:
Tanks: Can become more powerful than mages, but cost lots of money to maintain. Mages: Tend to be cheaper than tanks, but also tend to be less powerful (and less able to deal with armor penalties)
I think this provides a nice balance between spending money on your chars and spending exp on them; I see no reason to change it.
Why do people continue to ask for this? This has been on the list in CB1 and CB2 pretty much forever. You aren't going to change Jon's mind about it no matter how much you think it's a good idea.
Doesn't mean we're not gonna try.
January 20 2007 4:38 PM EST
Now *that's* good comedy.
Jon says I'm not changing this.
Guy #1 says 'hey can we change this?
Guy #2 refers him to where Jon said he's not changing this
And you retort by saying 'doesn't mean we're not gonna try'
This is like a comedy setup, except it isn't funny enough to make TV and the actors suck
I just had an idea for a new item
Amulet of Polymer -
Gives the wearer 1% (per +) of the enchantments cast on the enemy as if it were on their side. As well as the enchantments already cast on it from its original team.
I think for that to be functional, you would have to be affected by both positive and negative enchantments.. I guess if you don't cast any offense then it won't matter, though :P
Familiar of FoD.
this familiar trains FoD and HP and can turn any current strategy to dust in a
heart beat. Has a 25% of firing and only fires in uneven rounds
That would be so cool. But it will never happen.
If you don't know what FoD is: CB1 history
What I think is like a comedy is that Jon, himself, says that tank are stronger than mage. Who cares the money you spend since you have the same exp. I'ts almost if he was saying "Don't take a mage, they'll suck, I've created them only to be weak".
So why take a mage? cause they cost less. errrrrrr, Bad answer.
Hurray, let us have all the same tank strat and never use magic anymore. Cause as Jon said, he will never make a change on it, wich would be really brilliant.
How about FC would be a Familiar called the flying custard. It would be a pie throwing minion with a tiny damage but kill off lots of dex and the like .It would be essential to my all clown strategy .
Belle, I agree 100%. And mages aren't cheaper, because to make a mage as strong as a tank, it takes a lot more money, especially since weapon costs are linear. I think there should be a balance between cost/power. In the long run, I think mages are a lot more expensive because no one aims to be weak, they want to be at least as strong as everyone else, and to do that, it takes more money than a tank would spend upgrading his weapons.
January 21 2007 4:31 PM EST
Hah, this is funny.
Yes, I dare you, make me a staff. I put it on my CoC (already capable of dealing 1.7 million damage) and we'll see how long all you tanks last.
Let me funnel my VB's NW into it... yes... that will be brilliant.
Sorry, that may seem a bit harsh, unnecessarily so.
But simply, if you allow items (like weapons) that you can continually upgrade to boost DD, mages will always win. You won't be able to stop them, because they will only have to train ONE stat, instead of two.
I'm a small player. Even if I took all my items NW and put it into a staff, the staff would still only be around 6 mil NW. You know what? It wouldn't even take that much.
Well of course the cost of staff upgrading won't be as linear as weapon costs. I just think that some type of staff or item just for mages isn't completely unreasonable.
January 21 2007 5:24 PM EST
We have the CoI and AG just for mages. Your suggestion is retarded according to Jon. He even revised the FORS list in the past week. Guess what's still on there? That's right, staves.
Someone brings this suggestion up every few weeks and it gets shot down every single time. I vote that on the user page we replace the word "Supporter" with "Offerer of Retarded Suggestions" every time someone makes a suggestion thread about a FORS.
Whether it's in the form of staffs or another item doesn't really matter to me. I made the thread about staffs because I noticed how Gandalf and Saruman had staffs in the LOTR movies. But I just want some better balance between the cost/power of mages.
January 21 2007 6:36 PM EST
IMO if jon was to make staves he would put a limit on it, and make it unforgeable by you and the BS, because they would become so powerful, no one could beat the mages who carried them.
i was thinking perhaps a skill/item that slowed down or even sped up physical movement so that people could get into melee sooner/later
and hows about a helmet that made mages heads explode cause i don't like them =P
Sorry BH, but I think range as been enough buffed now.(maybe to much). Making this item or skill would only makes the melee and CoC mage even weaker and I don't want this to happen.
For the tank/mage. You said mage had CoI and AG, do I really need to say all of the items that boost tanks str or dex. Oh and forgot an item called elven hauberk and does it do, yes spell damage reduction. Do I see an item that does physical damage reduction... NO. And all good AC item can't be weared by mages. Max AG(+15) max CoI(+18) max MH[84x11085!!!!!!!!!] (+175!!!!!!) and is x is linear, so he can boost is damage for the same price every time. So what cost the most? You also said there mage had only one thing to train. HAHA I'd love to see you try this. And you got a superb tattoo that boost your str and dex.
How would it make melee weaker? An extra hit in melee makes melee weaker?
yea, and wear a ToA with armor? Nope, cant do that. You CAN wear wall armor on a mage, just it will reduce DD a bit (Or wear MCM), but it does reduce DX as well, were all in the same boat with AC BA. And even though tanks use ToA to up STR and DX doesnt mean you dont NEED to train exp into them, and we still use skills, and yes, all mages NEED to train IS the DD they use...
January 21 2007 8:38 PM EST
1) Why not just make a staff, but have it with a upgrade cost curve like the AGs... Slight Augmentation of mages, shuts most people up...
2) What exactly did FoD do?
January 21 2007 8:41 PM EST
How about a health serum or potion that raises HP for that battle ... (so you need to buy them a lot) or something else that raises HP.?
Raptor, Jon just made MH regen HP, lol
Yes Belle, I agree, there aren't many DD spell boosters, and those are also quite expensive to get and upgrade.
But you're also wrong, good AC gears can be worn by mages, and by using AG's and a CoI, you can make up for the -DD effects... look at the alternate CoC armor in the armor by functionality section in the wiki.
And physical damage is reduced by almost every armor out there, if you haven't noticed.
Regarding staffs, I can't say I don't like the idea (as I use a mage team) but since Jon really seems to hate staffs for some reason, I'm pretty sure that he'll never implement them. (so stop asking.)
January 21 2007 8:57 PM EST
Mages are supposed to be a cheap alternative.
You want a tank team you're going to pay, pay, pay.
You want a mage team, you can get by without paying.
Create a mage staff, and within ... say, an hour, because the
blacksmith is slow, you'll have complaints:
"Wah, there's only 1 Mage weapon and we have to upgrade it soooo
far, it too expensive."
As long as mages can be basically free, people can use them to build
up an NCB fund or to sell $CB to put their kids through college or
whatever it is non-tank teams do with $CB :)
January 21 2007 8:58 PM EST
Belle, Y'know the ToA how it's there just for Tanks?
Yeah, well there's a tat called the ToE, it y'know reduces damage and AMF backlash, handy wouldn't you say?
Like Fanta said, Alternate CoC Armour, It's pretty decent.
Or wear a ToE and wear CML, AG, HoC, MS. You could wear a Kite Shield as well.
that would give -14% (-11% with a KS) to DD, and it'll give you a crap load of damage reduction. With a Kite shield which is a reasonable Shield for a mage, you can get 3% extra damage and block a crap load of damage with the armour alone.
Damage is the price you pay if you want to live that long.
Now, that works for a single minion or multi-minion, Get a wall, gear it up, AoI your mage. Get a chanter (still 3 minions) AS and PL, PL-ing AC reduced damage, and all that before your Mage gets touched.
And wehell you've got a pretty defensive team there, still works with MM, but that seems to be the most viable CoC strat out there.
January 21 2007 9:04 PM EST
I have an alternative to boosting DD spells. About a skill that allows a minion to use MM during ranged combat and weapons during melee?
The skill would have to be trained at 25% of the MM level to be completely effective. When less than 25%, MM kicks in instead of the weapon a certain % of the time, doing far less damage than a boosted weapon.
I don't really know how it could be used effectively because the the immense amount of XP that would have to be trained to have effective MM and melee skills at the same time on one minion. However, it would be interesting to see.
January 21 2007 10:55 PM EST
January 21 2007 10:56 PM EST
"Do I see an item that does physical damage reduction... NO."
You should look more closely at the Exbow.
Armors reduce Physical damage by both the base AC and by the +, whereas mages are only affected by the +.
I'm not arguing in favor of tanks, btw, just pointing out the flaw in that statement...
But alternate CoC armor is not a good exemple since CoC sucks(for those arguing, Popsicle man and GL proved it a week ago.
January 22 2007 12:58 AM EST
Tanks are superior, but expensive. Mages are inferior, but cheap.
OddBird: can I point out the flaw in your exbow argument?
Exbows can't be wielded by mage teams. To hit a tank you need high dex. No mage has the spare XP to spend on the enormous amounts of dex required to be able to hit a tank with a crossbow.
Sure, there are items that cause physical damage reduction, but none are useable by mages...
As for the ToE, the top tank teams can (and do) use ToE's to their advantage as well. In any event Flamey, Belle was pointing out that you have a tattoo specifically designed to give tanks multiple hits and massive damage boost. Give a tattoo like that to mages and we'd be mopping the floor with the sword wielders ;-)
Hatchetman, please refer to my previous posts as to why that statement is completely illogical.
January 22 2007 2:23 AM EST
Okay, I'm going to put effort into this post.
The reason we pointed you in the direct of 'Alternate CoC Armour' was that, that is still suitable for a mage, You'll end up with High AC and still have a Positive bonus to your DD.
Let's do an example, 1 mil into all the armour, except for AG (so we can still have a positive DD bonus) and with a ToE:
* A Set of Chain Mail Leggings  (+33) - NW $981,473
* A Pair of Alatar's Gloves  (+13) - NW $2,671,562
* Helm of Clearsight  (+13) - NW $1,000,197
* Kite Shield  (+30) - NW $1,037,565
optional (because you'll probably use an AoI):
* Amulet of AC  (+16) - NW $878,432
Without the AoAC you'll get 112 AC all for $5,690,797 in NW. (23.52% physical reduction, 15.96% magical reduction.)
With the AoAC you'll get 128 AC all for $6,569,229 in NW. (26.88% physical reduction, 19.32% magical reduction.)
128 AC with a Damage reducing Tattoo? That's pretty sweet, most of the ToA tanks don't even have that.
This comes with a 2% bonus to DD, as well as all the damage reduced by the ToE which is high might I add.
An example, I do about 200k Damage with my ELB and about 200k with my VB.
Fighting Susan Death (InebriatedArsonist), I'm assuming her Tat is about 1.5millish, I hit 20k in ranged, and 30k in melee, I dunno why my VB did so little but it did, wow, a lot of damage reduction, and this Mage doesn't even have AC on her. (Yes, I know IA is a guy.)
Imagine reducing a further 26% on that.
Mages can be really defensive, this works for CoC, you can use with MM and have all that damage reduction and Backlash reduction as well. Mages can defend themselves ample.
January 22 2007 2:32 AM EST
Of course, muon.
Tanks had to do enough damage with the ToA for it to be viable and with the ToA to be viable. So, yeah you would mop the floor, but it would never happen, doing so much more damage like that, Jon wouldn't let it happen.
Sure, they can hit you twice or three times, but they can also miss, Mages never miss. All you need is some Evasion trained and voila all the non-ToA Tanks miss you, that is the ToE and RoS teams will probably miss you, unless they have an insanely large weapon. Even if they hit you in melee, you are capable of hitting them 4 times before they even touch you.
If you have the money and use DB and an AoI, you'll probably most surely make those non-ToA teams miss, all you need is probably +40 DB and an AoI and a lot will miss, but with a bit more to be safe, because DX can still hit you.
Huh, I don't get it, AC reduces physical damage does it not? ToE? All those items that bear AC and see my previous post on that.
January 22 2007 2:35 AM EST
"Hatchetman, please refer to my previous posts as to why that statement is completely illogical."
So its illogical because you "just want some better balance between the cost/power of mages." My mistake.
No, Hatchetman. The part where mages don't aim to be inferior. Most mages aspire to be at least on the playing field of tanks. And that costs much, much more than the tank. So mages aren't cheaper. They're cheaper if you like losing.
January 22 2007 3:08 AM EST
"Tanks: Can become more powerful than mages, but cost lots of money to maintain.
Mages: Tend to be cheaper than tanks, but also tend to be less powerful (and less able to deal with armor penalties)
I think this provides a nice balance between spending money on your chars and spending exp on them; I see no reason to change it."
Joanathan liked the quote enough to put it in the FORS, so i guess its gonna stick... So if you go mage, you ARE aiming for inferiority...
Well, then I quote Belle:
"What I think is like a comedy is that Jon, himself, says that tank are stronger than mage. Who cares the money you spend since you have the same exp. It's almost if he was saying 'Don't take a mage, they'll suck, I've created them only to be weak'."
January 22 2007 3:50 AM EST
Seems that's exactly why he created them. Cheap and easy. Can't have it cheap, easy, and just as strong. There's nothing a mage offers that a tank doesn't, I doubt this was an accidental oversight...
You want the power a mage weapon can bring, use a tank with a tank weapon.
January 22 2007 3:53 AM EST
Mages can dump money into DB if they want to. Nothing is going to stop them from actually wasting Money like pumping CoI and AG past their good points.
the Highest DB are +192, so yeah.
...The whole point I'm trying to make is that mages are in fact not cheap..
January 22 2007 4:03 AM EST
so, you couldn't make an effective mage with nothing but some leathers, a HoC, and maybe a tat?
I couldn't make an effective mage with an EH, CoI, AGs, DBs, AoI, and a HoC.
January 22 2007 4:08 AM EST
All you need for a tank to work is a ToA, a Ranged weapon and a Melee Weapon.
Sure, it works, you COULD make it more effective, by buying all those armours that specially augment Tanks.
I don't know even know what I'm posting here, It's right if you give Mages more items it'll be kinda like a tank that doesn't miss.
But, Hatchetman stop attacking people.
hmm, Things are good, as is. :)
January 22 2007 4:16 AM EST
Often a player asks the community "What's the price of X?" or "What does X
usually go for?" Although there may be a history of a certain piece of
equipment selling for a certain price, the hard and fast rule of an open
market is: An item's price is whatever someone is willing to pay for it.
High powered items are only worth what you can get someone to pay for them
"junk eq" is expensive if someone pays a high amount for it. Don't expect
prices to stay constant, and don't complain if you don't like them.
We the community decides what is expensive and what's not. Let us mages go forth and hoard the tank eq and sell it at ridicolous prices, so us poor mages can put +s in our dbs and AoIs on our lapels.
January 22 2007 4:33 AM EST
"But, Hatchetman stop attacking people."
I haven't attacked anyone here, i don't think... Unless calling out segments of a persons thread with quotation marks (which is seen, by me, as adressing someone's point) constitutes an attack... In which case, I guess you're under the gun now :P
My point was simple, mages are weaker but cheaper. Period. If you like to look at it from another standpoint, picture all the Gods (Jonathan) from all the religions (CB) came down and were speaking to all of their followers (Everyone else in CB). These Gods listen to their people, and try to do the best they can for them (thanks Jon :). The people come up with a request, and the God(s) say(s) "No, that is not going to happen. I have made things the way they are for a reason." (#9 on the FORS). Do the followers then have any right to tell their God(s) how things should be?
I'm not ruling out the discussion of a topic, just wondering why everyone insists on the same one... This game is rock/paper/scissors, so arguing _best_ is asinine. And my apologies to any members of the community I may have "attacked" just then...
January 22 2007 5:07 AM EST
Sorry, I tend to switch off when people start arguing the toss between mage and tank; and as for mage staffs enough already please...:/
But I did see this point made by Muon:
"In any event Flamey, Belle was pointing out that you have a tattoo specifically designed to give tanks multiple hits and massive damage boost. Give a tattoo like that to mages and we'd be mopping the floor with the sword wielders ;-) "
A tattoo for mages that gives multiple hits and massive damage boost? How about fire familiar? Steel familiar? Ice familiar? Ok, maybe not the IF.
But you see, it's not rock-paper-scissors at all! Unless rock is tanks and scissors are mages, which would make sense if paper was nothing. Despite what you may believe, mages don't aspire to be weaker than tanks. We want to be at least as strong as tanks. And it's not fair that we have to pay much more in order to do so.
January 22 2007 5:10 AM EST
But you don't... You can be a tank...
January 22 2007 5:15 AM EST
"We want to be at least as strong as tanks. And it's not fair that we have to pay much more in order to do so."
This from a player who's team is probably the lowest NW team in the top 25 characters. How much more money are you paying to be in the top 25? My little archer has higher NW than your char! I'm going to go and get some breakfast. My head hurts?
Actually, I just recently bought the character I'm using. Before that, my character was around 800k MPR, and even with the same stuff, it's still weak.
It really doesn't help having melee and ranged equipment on a minion with MM trained regardless of whether you don't have any ammo currently equipped.
JW - erm, you're missing my point.
I'm not arguing that mages need a huge boost (a little one would be nice, but I'm only saying that because I run a mage team).
What I was arguing was this:
Belle said that tanks have exlusive use of certain items, that give certain benefits that mages cannot access.
I agree with this. Seeker arrows instantly seek mages.
You say "What about ax/exbows? They seek tanks!"
Sure, but mages can't use them.
Belle (or... somebody) said "The mage shield, the elven hauberk.. specifically designed for tanks, so they can withstand magic."
Flamey said "ToE - reduces all damage, physical and magical! Including AMF splash!"
Sure, but tanks can use them too... I know, I'm not dissing ToE's they rock; but it isn't an even playing field if one side can use EH/MS and a ToE when the other side gets merely the ToE...
Then Flamey made the point about AC. Ok, I gotta admit that was a good argument.
Then JW you quoted me and said "Multiple hits with a massive boost to damage - isn't that what the familiars are for mages?"
Erm... no. They are not. Familiars are not a ToA for mages.
Don't get me wrong, I love my steel familiar. But, a tank team can run a SF if they want... I can't run a ToA...
The closest we have is the HoC... but wait, that's pretty useful for archers (read: tanks) too...
Long rant, and I apologise for that, but I guess the point that _I_ was trying to make (regardless of the original topic :-\ sorry) was that at the moment, the tanks have access to a lot of specialist equipment that isn't balanced by specialist equipment for mages.
January 22 2007 7:14 AM EST
Muon, I understand your point completely, don't worry. But, a mage can fight without any items whatsoever if they so choose. Unless you're using UC a tank HAS to have items to fight. To choose to fight tank is to choose to spend money like it's going out of style.
Mages can spend on BA to increase their size; unless you're wealthy a tank is torn between that path or spending on weapons. I've not been able to buy BA at all with this NCB, unless I wanted to fight with weak weapons.
The biggest problem with this tank versus mage argument though is that it is skewed. An average tank and an average mage are actually fairly well matched. The main reason those big tank teams at the top are able to do so well is either longevity of play, or the biggest problem USD.
USD skews everything. Some of that big NW would have taken me years to build up, based on the amount of cash I'm making at the moment.
The biggest Morg for instance is: $157,511,159. I'm currently making about 1.5 million a week. If I'd never spent money on anything else at all that Morg would have taken me two years to build up. Two years of absolutely focused spending that is, so no other weapons, no armours, no bonus giving items; Two years!
With that sort of skewing in the game how can anyone discuss balance properly?
JW, I definitely see your point. I agree, actually, so I'll shut up now. :-\
January 22 2007 7:23 AM EST
lol, don't shut up, these things need to be discussed. ;)
That's loose use of "need", JW. ;)
January 22 2007 7:37 AM EST
That's me, loose.
But if we didn't have posts like this what would the forums discuss? ;)
Which CBer you'd most like to get you water, if you were stranded on a desert island. /me omits the "Duh!".
January 22 2007 9:10 AM EST
"I agree with this. Seeker arrows instantly seek mages.
You say "What about ax/exbows? They seek tanks!"
Sure, but mages can't use them. "
Yes, but mages do have spells that specifically target tanks. eg EC.
Can I get a seeker skill please so I don't have to buy special arrows ;)
If your team has Haste and a decent + on the axbow/exbow then why can they not use it?
Saying "can't" to that option is like saying you can't drink your own urine, you can but you'd rather not.
January 22 2007 2:08 PM EST
<jingle>If you're on a dessert island and saltwater's around... Grab a warm cup of urine and chug it down!</jungle>
January 22 2007 5:47 PM EST
""I agree with this. Seeker arrows instantly seek mages.
You say "What about ax/exbows? They seek tanks!"
Sure, but mages can't use them. "
Yes, but mages do have spells that specifically target tanks. eg EC.
Can I get a seeker skill please so I don't have to buy special arrows ;)"
I'm sorry, EC? are you serious? You'd need to have that maxed on a minion, which isn't on a 4 minion team to do harm.
Anyone heard of AMF? Yeah, that's right AMF, hurts you and weakens your spell. At least EC doesn't reflect damage upon your opponent when they attack.
January 22 2007 8:41 PM EST
"OddBird: can I point out the flaw in your exbow argument?
Exbows can't be wielded by mage teams. To hit a tank you need high dex. No mage has the spare XP to spend on the enormous amounts of dex required to be able to hit a tank with a crossbow. "
To address this: I had no exbow argument, and therefore no flaw within said argument. I was simply pointing out that there *are* ways to reduce physical damage, since the statement had been made that there weren't.
That does bring a thought up, though...mages argue about having no weapon to put their NW into....but theoretically, couldn't the Exbow be just that weapon? Put your money into the + and X on it, with over 100+, and you are guaranteed a hit (disregarding Evasion/DBs/UC's effects).
Not worth it? Duh. But the option is still there, and it'd theoretically work. xD
January 22 2007 9:08 PM EST
If a DD spell is trained to any level and can fire in a given round, it will override any equipped weapon for that round.
Unless this entire conversation is purely about CoC then forgive me I'm an idiot.
My MMers would love a fat xbow :P
January 22 2007 10:13 PM EST
I should've clarified, you are correct - I was referring both to CoC and to Enchanters, not the weapon as being held by the Mage himself. The Exbow is impossible for a single mage.
How about a little cloud familiar that shoots lighting bolts.Unless that is what MM is.
January 26 2007 3:55 AM EST
come on people, lets get some more ideas.
How about a little realism, a dog you could train certain skills on.IE: go for throat,go for weapon arm,go for a pail of beer.
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