Mage + DD Familiar + HoC (in General)
I can't see a more effective Strategy, that doesn't cost the earth.
You can even customise your set up a little. FB or MM Mage. Steel or Fire Familiar.
This combo pumps out outrageous damage (Archer with an ELB, HoC and a Junctioned HF would do more, but you can't Junction with Archery...) and allows your to effectively make use of any DD boosting items you might have (same for the Archer and HF, DEX and BG are put to good use here).
The ability to change targets in the first round is superb. Take a MM Mage + Junctioned SF with a HoC and AG. If both DD are large enough, you can hit and kill 4 minions in the first round of combat.
I know you can 'counter' this, but it takes NW. AMF isn't too much of a help, especially if you face a single Mage. A large MgS + EH rear Wall could combat this, but takes a minion slot, and then there's the FB/FF combo. Who cares about Melee Splash...
January 30 2007 10:10 AM EST
The ELB archer with HoC and HF doesn't work as well (I tried it!) mostly because of the amount of evasion around, even a smallish evasion hurts it a lot.
Single mage and familiar on the other hand needs a huge amount of AMF to shut it down; or lots of NW as you say. You can more easily shut down FF/FB than MM/SF but it still requires lots of damage reduction ability.
(Did you notice in there, the comparison of evasion and AMF? Heh, small xp spend into evasion can shut a tank down; mages complain about AMF backlash - Pah!)
FF/FB can be shut down easily with ToE, MgS or 2 and a multi minion team. It looks like a decent strat though and I'm considering it once I use a tattoo. I'm still not convinced about junction, evasion may still be the way to go.
January 30 2007 10:22 AM EST
I was strongly considering selling the space knights and starting up a new NCB with MM/junctioned SF since it appears to be a very solid strat. Neutralizes evasion, slap a big DM on there and you would be nuking minions in ranged left, right and center (well starting from the back row of course :D)
January 30 2007 10:39 AM EST
The problem with the strategy isn't the idea, it's that it is single minion. I'm not saying it isn't a damn good single-minion strategy (it is probably the best I could think of), but the lack of Evasion is going to hurt. Simple multi-minion teams will be your demise, especially ones with large damage reduction, big AMF, or a large Jig on them.
So, if you want to go single minion, this is a great idea. But I don't think it is better than any bog standard 4 minion team (MgS, RoS, ToE, blah blah blah). And to make it stand out against tanks is going to take Evasion, like Rubberduck said...
January 30 2007 10:56 AM EST
Trashcan's strategy, + HoCs and a Steel Familiar and Junction and a couple corns, is awesome.
8 Magic Missiles hitting in the first round. Yeah buddy.
January 30 2007 10:58 AM EST
I actually tried FB + FF + HoC for a little while (with the tattoo maxed around 1.2mil). Not too bad but I would seriously suggest MM + SF over FB/FF. A good sized GA on a 4 minion team is brutal on the split damage and if by some miracle you get both your minion and familiar to melee you'll kill yourself in 2 rounds at most.
Adding an extra minion, a purely AS enchanter (or DM/AS) would mean an AoI and junction would have huge benefits. Who cares what goes on that minion since he is going to die first round anyway.
Given the way amf works I'd much rather have 1 big MM and a SF than 3 smaller MMs and SF.
Make it a two minion team Sute, with an AoI and a Minion with Evasion. ;)
Or use it on a four minion team. While I only mentioned a single minion in my OP, I wasn't intending this to be a single minion point. ;)
Granted, you can get *more* damage on your Mage, the lower the minion count, by it doesn't matter for the familiar.
OB, with 4 MM Mages wearing HoC and one junctioning a SF, you could get 10 MM hits in the first round of combat. All able to target a different opponent, if one is killed by an earlier attack.
You get the same overall damage from one MM Mage + Hoc as you do with 4, but you'd get the benefit of more chances to change target, and more kill slots.
AMF would be more effective versus you though.
January 30 2007 11:26 AM EST
Well, how about:
Minion 1: Huge Mage (large HoC, DD, CoI, AGs), large Evasion
Minion 2: Junction and DM, wearing HoC and AGs, SF on him.
Minion 3: Pure DM enchanter, with Corn.
(And I am pretty sure Dixie Cousins will still own me, amongst others.)
No need for AoI, it wouldn't really help with anything (feel free to try to work one in and let me know how). And can't use AoF, AMF already hurts way too damn much.
January 30 2007 12:03 PM EST
Sorry to bust in but Im in a similar situation. but I was thinking,
Minion 1: DM / GA - Corn (im using AMF but I think DM would be better)
Minion 2: MM - CoI, AGs, HoC, AoI
Minion 3: Junction/AS - SF, AGs, HoC
This way I have 2 mall meat shields my main DD gets missed by seekers, and the SF gets at least 2 shots as well. I'm not sure if it would work well, but I don't have the gear to try anyway :P
January 30 2007 12:06 PM EST
With the HoC, I have found that meat up front doesn't gain much unless it is hard to hit meat. I could put two kill slots in front of my mage and they would still be gone in one round against an HoC archer. On the other hand, I leave my mage up front and he can't get hit at all in round one. Of course, he gets whaled on in melee. That's where huge DBs would help, but Popsicle Man and Central Bank conspired against me to make sure that didn't happen. *grin*
Minion 1: PL, HP, DM, TSA, AoI
Minion 2: MM, Junction, SF, HoC, AG, AoI
Minion 3: Evasion, EH, MgS, EG, EB, EC, AoF
January 30 2007 12:15 PM EST
Well Im not really worried about the meat shields because I think that idea is to end the battle in Ranged. So if They Both Take one hit It helps my DD hit one more round so its cool. At this point that is how Im looking at it. In the Future yes Evasion would probably be a good idea. But I think I would still keep the AS.
January 30 2007 12:27 PM EST
GL, I would worry about minion 3, you are trying to make him an Evasion wall as well as a MM debunker -- he's going to be diluted, as is minion 1, a bit. But it is a nice trio -- utilizes all the "must haves" in CB2. *smile*
My setup b4 I put my items in rentals was
If I had a better distriubtion of XP that strat would've worked fine (I was equal xp).... Probably need the MM mage and AS chanter to hold a bit more xp, i found my main guy's MM was just too weak :( and I used that setup instead of putting junction on a chanter coz I couldn't afford another AG/AoI
But not a VB Sute.. If only I could fit one of those in as well... ;)
January 30 2007 2:51 PM EST
Can anyone say: "minitank"? While i don't see it as a possibility for Sut's team, throw in a tank training only ST and HP to use a VB to rip through those pesky High AC non-Evasion walls... Oh dear... I've said too much already... *runs away and starts remapping*
January 30 2007 2:52 PM EST
tacking on a minitank would not only throw in the "must have" of the VB, but of the four minion team as well o_0
January 30 2007 2:54 PM EST
I figure a team needs a damage dealer, and that the damage dealer should NOT be the Junction minion (too much dilution). So, you can make the damage dealer be a tank or a mage, except a tank without a ToA is hard to do, and it is also not really practical to learn Evasion on a real tank (usually Archery or BL is m ore useful). So, the mage lends itself better to the whole:
1. Damage Dealer
February 1 2007 8:40 PM EST
I understand having 4 attacks in the first round is nice, but what about 1 less attack and keeping evasion intact. So a 1 minion strat would be:
Single MM mage with HoC, big evasion (and perhaps big DBs), etc and big SF.
That would give 3 attacks in 1st round potentially killing 3 minions. Unlike an archer combo, the MM doesn't require the ToA to be vaguely effective.
Train Junction and use big DB. ;)
I tried this setup with my NCB. There's a lot of good things to come from this strat, but there are also drawbacks. 4-minion teams AS teams murder you as previously posted.
My original setup was:
1. MM/Junct/DM - AGs, DBs, AoI, HoC
The bad thing about this strat is that it is a low hp setup, meaning any single minion tank with ToA/Archery/Elbow kills you in the first round, eventhough you're dishing out big damage. Multi minion teams will be your biggest problem, though. FB doesn't do enough damage to effectively deal with large AS. MM targets from the back, and that means AoI + front minion will kill you before you ever get a hit in on it. I found a happy median between the two, but decided to try an HF strat. I added a tank and I am currently building him so that he can handle being a wall if nothing else.
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