Figured out awesome strategy! (in General)
February 10 2007 9:38 PM EST
Flame if u must, i am just trying to leanr more about the game and expand my knowledge of everything. I have done lots of research into the skills and spells and strategies and have come up with these two strategies from all I have learned. Feel free to criticise, flame, or help, whatever makes you happy!
ok after a lot more research i have come up with this as my plans (please tell me what you would change and what you like and your opinions and ideas!!!)
T: Evasion, ToA, AoC, Protection (20)
E: Haste and AMF
E: EC and GS
This would up my Tank to the max, being able to take and dish whatever come at him...Also equipting MH to gain some life in the process :)
T : Evasion, ToA, AoI, Protection (20)
E: AS + AMF
E: Haste + EC?
W: PL + HP (Wearing DD reducing Gear) + AoC
This would make my tank pretty strong still, just losing a bit of AS and the GS. This would also make my wall take all the main damage, plus the damage from my tank WHEN my tank ever gets hit (thanks to evasion). All DD spells reduced by the Wall, while the Tank is pummelling away on everything. Also equipting MH to gain some life in the process :)
Tell me what you think (Im pretty excited about these two, not sure if the three enchanters is overkill ro not, but ya, tell me what you think!
if you want to use EC effectively, you need a _lot_ of EXP in it, splitting it between EC/GS or EC/Haste (all 3 spells requiring a lot of EXP to be of any use) is a bad idea, I'd say you could do without the EC in both strategies.
GS is also a spell I would leave out, there are very few EC's out there large enough to negate the STR a ToA gives, plus normal STR, and since you need to do something like quadruple your STR to double your damage (IIRC), GS is a bad investment. Another thing about STR, as long as you stay above 100k after enemy EC or ExBow, you are not going to notice very much damage reduction (once again, IIRC).
You might want to move the AMF to the 4th "E" on strategy #1 and end up with:
T: Evasion, ToA, AoC, Protection (20)
Strategy number two:
Drop the EC, pure haste will be a nice asset for you when you have evasion supplementing your defensive DX.
I don't know much about PL, never used it myself, but I do remember reading that a wall shouldn't have PL on it. Not sure about the details here.
I probably missed a lot, but there you go. :)
February 10 2007 9:49 PM EST
Very Informative, thank you very much. Anyone else.
I liked the look of the 1st strat u gave, just seeing 3 enchanters with only one spell.... massive gains :)
February 10 2007 10:11 PM EST
Basically, if you are having a tank as your main weapon, and you are using a ToA, wouldn't creating 3 minions to help the tank be stronger actually make him weaker due to EXP dilution? I understand that you will want more minions in the long run, but I don't like the Haste and GS unless you might use multiple minions as damage dealers...
Just wanted to mention... you had a huge post about this topic, and you got chastised for bumping it... So you started a new post on the same topic? I honestly don't really mind so much, I just thought it odd.
February 10 2007 10:18 PM EST
Im sorry forremaking a post, i did it for a few reasons, one the post was geting long and no one that could help me wanted to read it lol, two the post had so many strategy changes, whenever i even re read it, i woudl get lost on what i was thinking would be the best strategy. two that post was bouncing on different topics such as "when do i get the next minion", "what do i equipt them with", etc, and i wanted a strait forward post not to confuse anyone.
DM is going to DESTROY that strat, as Haste and AS are both ED
and personally, i tried the second strat and failed miserably, AoI didnt help, so i went back to my current strat, but then again, i also dont use ToA, so that may help you with your AoI strats
February 10 2007 10:31 PM EST
How will DM destroy it. If you say someone would train 50k in one stat and 50k in another on an enchanter, training only one stat would give you 100k on one enchanter, making DM not fizzle it but barely reduce it compared to training two stats. I see DM will hurt since i am relying on enchanters quite a bit, but what team doesnt rely on enchantments and is somewhat worried about DM? Thank you for the input though, DM is something i want to not worry about ;)
February 10 2007 10:47 PM EST
Another thing about the multiple minions... if there are four, they will each have 50% of the EXP that a team with two minions would each have... If one of the opposing minions was to train DM exclusively, you're E's would all be rendered completely useless... and your Tank would only have 50% of the EXP that the Tank you are up against has...
February 10 2007 11:06 PM EST
Exactly the downfall of a 2-4 minion team. You either get strong skills/spells/attributes or you get versatility.... Suggesting a TE team?
February 10 2007 11:09 PM EST
I'd say keep this strat like you've got it, but drop the Haste for EC, rather than what the others are saying. EC can't be DM'ed, will increase your DX advantage, eat into Evasion's Defensive DX, and will reduce physical damage done to your team.
Also I'd say put Evasion on a different minion - one that will be fired at during Ranged rounds - so that you can take advantage of those bonuses. Evasion in Melee rounds isn't the uber-powerful skill that it is in Ranged.
February 10 2007 11:11 PM EST
I wasn't suggesting a TE team, I was just saying that if you are going TEEE or TEEW then you need to specialize your E's (one spell a piece) and make sure to use Corns... Also, consider that an RoS on an enchanter would also help block Dispel Magic from hurting it so much... Dunno if you are set on a ToA, just wanted to remind you.
February 10 2007 11:12 PM EST
But if i have the tank up front (such as strat two) wouldnt i want evasion on him? Or put it on someone else and put like BL on my tank?
No don't use evasion on the tank because hes up front, hes technically in back because of AoI, he will get hit last after all others are dead (MM teams or not). So yea, the Es would have a better use for it since they take the ranged dmg.
February 10 2007 11:14 PM EST
Ya i had been thinking about the RoS, love the thought of it, but i seriously love the thought of a ToA a little bit more. both have benefits, without ToA, i can get a MgS and TSA on my guy and be able to defend from magic pretty good, but also, with the ToA, it raises my Dex and Str so much that i can focus on other things and/or raise them a lot higher than non ToA Teams
February 10 2007 11:16 PM EST
Nice awesome thanks, lol i didnt even think about AoI and what it did, i totally spaced it. So then should i train BL or VA on my tank?
February 10 2007 11:30 PM EST
If its going to be 4 minion, avoid VA since your exp is already diluted. You should just train BL and a lot of HP to survive GA. My suggestion is TEEW with AMF and AS trained on the E and pure HP on the wall.
February 10 2007 11:39 PM EST
I would suggest, rather than training VA or BL, putting Archery on there and taking advantage of the ToA's STR, DX, and PTH combined with an ELBow's power and the extra HoC ranged round. You'll have Evasion holding them off of you during ranged, then they'll have enchanters to eat through in melee, all before they get to your tank - and he'll have 4 ranged rounds to work on them and then will regenerate HP during the beginning of melee with his MH while they work away at your Enchanters.
Just my suggestion, of course. =)
February 10 2007 11:44 PM EST
Liking what im hearing, good ideas from everyone. Anyone else?
Also, if i have a high PTH from ToA, do i need archery, cuz that is a lot of exp points since ToA raises my strength i will have a hard time keeping up
February 10 2007 11:45 PM EST
If you plan on taking advantage of a big ELB you should use archery for sure...
February 10 2007 11:54 PM EST
I dont know where the post is, but i did read someone (well known) had trained archery and i think they took it off to see if the ToA made it so they never missed anyways, they had high x modifiers and i wanna say +60 on the bow, and still never missed. Anyone able to confirm or say they have tried this?
February 11 2007 12:04 AM EST
If you are going the archery route, train DM to reduce your opponent's GA. Your tank will not survive against any GA team if you do not have DM.
February 11 2007 12:06 AM EST
with dm i would lose an effect off of all on my enchantments too though, unless i used RoS, but cant i not use RoS if i am using ToA?
February 11 2007 12:07 AM EST
LOL decisions decisions... anyone else?
February 11 2007 12:07 AM EST
If you are going archery, you are going for quick kill. Reduce all your opponent's defensive enchantments like AS and GA and you can kill them off faster. AMF would not be needed if you are going for quick kill. AMF is over-rated anyway ;)
February 11 2007 12:10 AM EST
If you are going AMF, you should train BL and not archery. Train AMF if you are going to rely on melee to finish the battle.
February 11 2007 12:12 AM EST
Ok, but im not necissarily relying on either, if i kill them in ranged, awesome, if i finish them completely in melee then thats fine too, just wanna finish them period. which would help me out better? Use DM to reduce everything, unluding my own stuff, but making my hits harder and faster or using AMF to stop pesky DD spells that love to kill me off in ranged...
February 11 2007 12:15 AM EST
If you are in 2 minds, I suggest you better decide first before moving on. If you are going archery, you should have a big ELB with a high PTH. If not, you can forget about it with the massive number of evasion teams out there. If you are going for BL, its a lot easier since evasion will not be as strong as in ranged. Just equip a large MH and destroy them in melee. But, you must survive until melee, of course ;)
February 11 2007 12:20 AM EST
Ok ... so guess im training archery then? anyone else? Also, still suggesting AMF or DM? I dont like how DM will reduce my AS and whatnot.... but what is everyones opinion on this?
February 11 2007 12:25 AM EST
You can train DM, but it will reduce its effect from your AMF's level. I.E. a 100k DM (effect 80k) + a 500k AMF = 100k DM and 420k AMF.
So you might consider training a little DM to combat GA's effects, but not enough to seriously cripple your AMF. I see no reason not to train both.
And yes, I'd definitely go with Archery - your Enchanters will make for very little resistance through ranged rounds against mages and through melee rounds will die quickly to tanks, so you will only have ranged + a few short melee rounds to get your dirty work done.
February 11 2007 12:35 AM EST
I swear i have read many times that it reduces ALL enchatments (including your own)
February 11 2007 12:36 AM EST
correction, read it wrong, DM will reduce MY EC and AMF
February 11 2007 1:46 AM EST
So what have we come up with then. Is it worth it to train DM only a little bit and Train AMF alot, will the little DM help at all?
February 11 2007 2:28 AM EST
Training a little DM is fine but it will be pretty useless other than reducing some base protection ;) If you are going archery, then full DM and finish everything in ranged or 2nd round of melee.
February 11 2007 2:30 AM EST
What about mages?
February 11 2007 2:31 AM EST
If you have AS trained and is able to kill one minion per round, do you think you should be afraid of mages? ;)
February 11 2007 2:34 AM EST
I guess not really, are you suggesting to go a TE team with the E training AS and DM?
February 11 2007 2:36 AM EST
If you want to go DM, I would suggest at least 3 minions. TEW would be the setup. I believe 4 minions would be even better since FB damage will be spread out even more and MM has more minions to kill before it reaches your tank.
February 11 2007 3:28 AM EST
can u give a list of what you are suggesting skill wise for the TEEW team?
see Pit Spawn's char the Quadrumvirate for a perfect setup not dissimilar to your idea(s)
February 11 2007 9:26 PM EST
I dont totally liek his idea, two walls seems like a waste of money, may be though, but i would choose two enchanters over two walls.
anyone else have any ideas for me, PLEASE?!
Don't get too stuck on the concepts of minion classes. A Wall can have just as good of an AMF as an Enchanter, even though it would suffer from reduced effectiveness. It would, though, have more AC and HP, and would last longer in battle, giving it multiple uses.
The first thing you need to do is figure out how you're going to play; BL is pointless if you're going for a quick kill, as is CoC. FB may not be best if you're playing defensive with multiple minions. You also have to choose what kind of opponents you want to fight; mages, tanks, both, or mixed.
Then design your own strategy based on what you want. There's no way for us to tell you the best way to play. For one, there is no best way to play. There are only good strategies and bad ones. Pick one, and go with it. If you're unhappy, you can change it. If you like it, you can keep going.
Secondly, we have no idea what your budget is. If you have $1 billion USD to spend on this game, I'm sure you'd be unstoppable in no time. However, if you have little or no money to spend on the game, you might be better off without a wall, and spending the money on mage or enchanter gear, instead.
Thirdly, if you're indecisive enough to ask for people's opinions a dozen times, perhaps you should simply find a strategy that is widely successful, and go with it. SFBM and SMMM seem to be fairly popular.
But, then again, what do I know? (Methinks SFBM and SMMM need to be added to the spellchecker)
I know most of this has been covered already here, but let's sum up:
You want to augment your damage dealer as much as possible.
Having 4 minions and training one as a tank, one as Haste, one as GS and one as AS means that the only minion whose experience isn't _completely wasted_ is the AS minion. In such a case, you would be far better off just having two minions: AS and tank. In this case, augmenting your damage dealer would mean allowing him/her/it the most exp possible.
Basically, the lesson here is one of exp dilution. You diluted your EC and it would be useless. You diluted your Haste and it would be useless. Finally, you diluted total experience expenditure across 4 minions instead of one - and this is your major problem.
When creating a multi-minion team, what you actually are trying to do is to create a more effective single-minion team - your other minions should be trained so as to augment a single dealer. Your wall is basically high-AC hitpoints for your dealer, your haste enchanter is basically dexterity for your dealer, your amf enchanter is just magical protection for your dealer, and so on.
You "gain" experience because your wall can use armor without it effecting the tank's dex/str investment, or the enchanters' spells; and the enchanters take up MM kill slots, and can also cast more than a single ED spell (two E's = two ED spells; one single large character = one ED spell max); and if you spread 100,000 exp into hitpoints across 2 characters, you will have a grand total of more HP than if you spend 100,000 exp into hitpoints on a single character; etc etc.
I know, it isn't _quite_ this simple (especially when large 5 minion teams with lots of AS and GA are involved <grin>) but this is the basis of numbered minion strategy. And it is why the top characters are pretty much all multiple-minion teams.
Ok, so that pretty much covers minion numbers. And we sort of covered experience dilution. What we haven't summed up yet is wasted experience/NW.
For example: a wall with PL trained wastes both experience and money.
Money: it's AC is practically worthless - when you absorb damage with PL, no AC reduction takes place on your end (it does on the original minion's end only).
Experience: Since no AC reduction takes place, you lose more hitpoints than you would usually. Hence, you can basically cross off about half of your hitpoints as "wasted expenditure" since a high AC wall reduces at least half of the total damage taken (400 AC reduces by 84%, for example).
So, as you can see, there are some simple things that you simply should not do.
A brief list:
Train a low EC (well, there are exceptions - nerfing enchanters' dex etc).
Train PL on a Wall.
Train PL and GA on a team.
Train FB and GA on a multi-minion team.
Train CoC. (sorry Belle Angel, and the other proponents ;-)
Well, sorry it was a long post, but I hope it gives you some insights into (my opinion of, at least) how the game works.
February 12 2007 9:31 AM EST
That was very help ful, thank you. I relized about the PL, people kept saying to use it, but i saw it defeated the purpose of my wall being able to withstand damage as well. Any other hints or information?
I just bought my AS enchanter 9was it too early?) and im trying to raise his skill level, only gaining about 7k hp right now.
February 12 2007 9:35 PM EST
Is this what everyone thinks sounds good?
This would give me extreme HP on my wall and tank, due to it being the only trined skill on my first enchanter, and the DM will reduce all but the mightiest of enchantments on enemey minions, which then would reduce them a lot. sound good?
February 12 2007 9:38 PM EST
Or instead of archery train evasion using DB and AoI, making me hard as hell to hit with my ToA and high tank dex. Then i would be sacraficing my PTH on my bow... which i am still wondering, against everything but the highst evasions, wont i still get doubles and triples in ranged?
Also would DM be the best choice, or AMF?
Or evasion on first enchanter, making him hard to hit in ranged, giving my wall an extra round ro two
/me gives it the seal of Slayer's approval....
Which may or may not have much significance. :)
February 12 2007 9:55 PM EST
Makes me feel good :)
So you dont think i should change anything, as to what i suggested to may be change, depending on what you guys think? And only train DM right so that it can take out... everything :)
February 12 2007 10:48 PM EST
Anyone else have an opinion on this strategy. This is what i have come up with from everyone;s help... is this good, or am i focusing on DM too much when i should have something else or DM with something else. or whatever els ei asked before?
February 13 2007 12:10 AM EST
Animal, seriously what more do you want? Over two threads you have received probably 99% of the strategy advice that we, as a community, have to give. The rest is up to you. Just start a strategy and modify it as you go so that you can beat a wide range of characters. There is no perfect strategy to use, so trying to find one is futile. If ever there was a perfect strategy, it would probably be widely used and you would have already learned about it by now. So please, do me a favor and just play the game.
February 13 2007 12:36 AM EST
If there was a perfect strategy it would probably be ruined by a new supporter item ;)
"There is no perfect strategy to use, so trying to find one is futile."
Yes, but to resign yourself to mediocrity is a far greater loss than a little wasted time in aiming for perfection.
Animal, my main suggestion at this point is to not hang onto a single minion character any longer than you want to. Sticking to only two minions is simpler, therefore better for new players and will get you a higher MPR, but more minions will allow you to experiment with strategies which I think will be far more beneficial for you, although there is no rush to hire new minions, just do it whenever you want.
And threads like this are helpful, but don't take people's advice as absolute. Take it as nothing more than suggestions, because people are frequently wrong (except me, of course), test things out in different situations and keep what works, get rid of what doesn't, soon enough you'll have a solid strategy.
February 13 2007 2:00 AM EST
Remember also that when you hire minions, the amount of exp they receive (and their cost) is relative to the MPR or you highest MPR minion, not the MPR of your team... so having one huge minion will give you bigger minions when you hire them.
"Yes, but to resign yourself to mediocrity is a far greater loss than a little wasted time in aiming for perfection. "
And to deliberate endlessly is the greatest loss still.
February 13 2007 5:58 AM EST
It's no secret that ordinarily I love strat threads. But I have to agree with Nightstrike on this one. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and go with what you've got. You won't know a strat works until you fight with it and you can always tweak along the way. Infact even if it's good you will find you have to tweak elements along the way.
Animal: Just go for it! Take the plunge and build your team. Get fighting! :)
February 13 2007 6:03 AM EST
I haven't read this thread, but to add (I think) to what WoW said.
He's right, no strat will ever be the same as when it was drafted or thought out. You'll have to change something.
Anybody who has a brain and has been playing a while, can tell you, there team didn't start out like that, even after they had thought of the strat.
I mean, I was ETME, with a CoC Mage, now I'm a TEEE. Especially at the top, I bet they wont even remember their original strat, it has probably changed so dramatically its like a whole different strat now.
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