AoF versus DM (in General)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 12 2007 9:57 AM EST

Which is applied first to a target ED?

Is it (ED*AoF)-DM or (ED-DM)*AoF?

Nerevas February 12 2007 10:12 AM EST

Most likely DM is applied first.

Lochnivar February 12 2007 10:17 AM EST

According to wiki:
Dispel Magic does not get amplified by the Amulet of Focus, though Antimagic Field and Ethereal Chains do.

Based on the wiki definition and some math fundamentals we get the following.
Since (ED-DM)*AoF = ED*AoF - DM*AoF and DM can not be amplified by Amulet of Focus then (ED-DM)*AoF must be false.

So the formula must be:

(ED*AoF) - DM

Is there a particular reason why spell check doesn't like AoF? Seriously, this post is kind of a pain considering the number of times I've used the term.

Nerevas February 12 2007 10:31 AM EST

What the wiki info is referring to is that an AoF worn by the enchanter does not directly magnify a DM cast upon it. If this were the case, the effect reduced-ED effect would be felt by all minions on a team. (ED-DM)*AoF is the correct formula for the ED effect received by the minion wearing the AoF, and all other minions not wearing an AoF receive the normal (ED-DM). While you are correct that the AoF is *technically* multiplying DM, if it were to work the other way AoF would be too powerful.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] February 12 2007 11:09 AM EST

"One point of clarification: "all enchantments experienced" does NOT mean "all enchantments cast." Any enchantment cast on this minion will have its effective level increased. (Post-DM, if any. DM itself is not affected.)"

Lochnivar February 12 2007 11:35 AM EST

I ran some tests with an AoF on my last minion and sure enough the +8 Amulet of Focus yielded 1.24* the ED that was present without the amulet

Thus the formula = (ED-DM)*AoF

Which is to say, despite the wiki entry, that the Amulet most certainly does amplify DM.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 12 2007 11:46 AM EST

Thanks! :)

AdminNightStrike February 12 2007 12:28 PM EST

The AoF doesn't multiply DM directly. If it did, it would be amplifying DM twice. The wiki entry is basically saying that the equation is NOT:

(ED-AoF*DM) * AoF

See, you have to amplify DM before DM is applied, and you have amplify the ED after DM is applied. So basically, that would result in making DM uber powerful. As far as I can tell, what Jon was trying to convey was that this was not the case.

DM is, however, indirectly amplified because of the simple distributive property of multiplication and addition.

Lochnivar February 12 2007 1:13 PM EST

I still don't agree with the argument the DM isn't multiplied by an AoF

Based on the testing I've done a +8 AoF results in 1.24 times the orignal enchantment experienced.

For example:
Haste is cast on minion x with an effect of 1mil when not faced with DM
An AoF would result in 1.24mil haste on minion x
The same minion battling an opponent with a big DM experiences 500k haste without an AoF.
With the same AoF, based on experiments, minion x would experience 620K haste.

Contrasting EC, which IS multiplied
The same minion x with a 1mil effect haste has a 500k effect EC cast on him resulting in a net 500k haste.

With a +8 AoF we get
1mil * 1.24 = 1.24mil haste
500k * 1.24 = .620mil EC
Total = 620k Haste

How exactly is is that the EC is considered to be multiplied whereas the DM is not?

Am I wrong in interpreting the situation because it certainly appears to be little difference between the effect of an AoF on EC and DM.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 12 2007 2:53 PM EST

it's not assumed you are casting Haste/GS, therefore EC is less likely to be fighting a bonus to dex and str from the AoF...that's my perspective...

AdminNightStrike February 12 2007 3:50 PM EST

If you put the AoF on the last minion in your party, Loch, you will see exactly what's going on with and without it.

Lochnivar February 12 2007 4:19 PM EST

That's what I did.

Just to be clear, I have absolutely no confusion as to what actually happens when an DM is cast on a minion with an AoF.

My point is simply that the assertion that DM is not amplified by the AoF is misleading.

If someone put a +8 AoF on a minion receiving a 1mil AS they would expect to receive 1.24mil AS

When faced with a 500k DM that isn't boosted would lead one to believe the following to be true:
1mil*1.24 - 0.5mil = 0.74mil

In reality it should be expressed as either
(1mil - 0.5mil)*1.24 = 0.62mil
1mil*1.24 - 0.5mil*1.24 = 0.62

If the wiki for the AoF were changed to remove the line about DM not being affected or to note that the bonus was to post DM enchantments it would be a lot more clear.

AdminNightStrike February 12 2007 6:06 PM EST

If the wiki line was removed (and that line was copied directly from a post by Jon), then the implied equation would be (1m - 500k * 1.24) *1.24 --- and that is incorrect, as the DM would be modified twice. What Jon is saying, I would guess, is that the DM is not directly modified, but is instead implicitly modified because of the order of operations.

Or maybe it's a bug.

Lochnivar February 12 2007 7:35 PM EST

Ah yes, the original changelogs are helpful.

Specifically the first post:
One point of clarification: "all enchantments experienced" does NOT mean "all enchantments cast." Any enchantment cast on this minion will have its effective level increased. (Post-DM, if any. DM itself is not affected.)

--Jonathan, September 22 2006 11:37 PM EDT

The portion in brackets is not included in wiki and goes directly to the question I was asking.

I believe the last line of my previous mentioned something about 'noting that the bonus was on post DM enchantments' which is exactly what Jon said and exactly what was missing from wiki. I'll just drop that bracketed piece into wiki and thus everyone is happy.
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