Something a bit off... (in General)

TheHatchetman February 14 2007 3:17 PM EST

I'm ranked as the number two clan scorer for the year. Yet, when i wake up, or come home from work, my net score is in the negative. This is largely due to me being a juicy target for *anyone* in the game that can beat me...

I'm not complaining about being farmed, just that at a certain level it becomes extremely difficult to have any type of decent clan participation. See this thread for suggested ideas...

TheHatchetman February 14 2007 3:33 PM EST

Furthermore, ever notice how the lower your BA refresh goes, the better target you seem to become?

Revs February 14 2007 4:18 PM EST

I'm not saying that there is a right or wrong way to fight out your ba. But when you have a fightlist of 3, and you spend two days worth of bought ba on just those 3 on a somewhat regular basis, you have to expect some kind of retribution from that. Particularly when those people experience exactly what you are posting initially about in the first place, except from you being the instigator of those negative cp's. I'm not sure how much it's about "dead zones", as much as action and re-action with clans keeping high bonuses.

Just a thought.

QBJohnnywas February 14 2007 4:27 PM EST

You're fighting 'too high' Hatch. It's unfortunate that when you are able to defeat opponents that much bigger than you are, that their peers who you can't beat will jump on you from a great height.

Fresh meat!!!

Revs February 14 2007 4:42 PM EST

I'm not sure that's totally the case. Within the top 25 players there's a large rock/paper/scissors effect. Hatchetman can beat me, who can beat someone else, who can beat Hatchetman. I think his strat works very well against one like mine, but not against the other 90%. The result is that he can get a high score, which makes him an attractive target to those 90% which kill the cp's. It's not that he's fighting to high. It's just that he's a rock that pursued scissors into a whole lot of fighting paper. ;)

Tezmac February 14 2007 4:46 PM EST

"But when you have a fightlist of 3, and you spend two days worth of bought ba on just those 3 on a somewhat regular basis, you have to expect some kind of retribution from that."

That's the reason he's on my list.

AC 478 February 14 2007 4:55 PM EST

lol :)

Slashundhack [We Forge Our Own Stuff] February 14 2007 5:07 PM EST

Wait am I fighting paper? Scissors ? I'm not the rock he's Hawaiian and I hate raslin'.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 14 2007 5:39 PM EST

Rock is Samoan I think...

Slashundhack [We Forge Our Own Stuff] February 14 2007 8:56 PM EST

Well you were closer than me but....

TheHatchetman February 14 2007 9:43 PM EST

"You're fighting 'too high' Hatch. It's unfortunate that when you are able to defeat opponents that much bigger than you are, that their peers who you can't beat will jump on you from a great height. "

So, i should fight negative challenge bonus people so that i can have a positive clan score... that doesn't seem right.

"I'm not saying that there is a right or wrong way to fight out your ba. But when you have a fightlist of 3, and you spend two days worth of bought ba on just those 3 on a somewhat regular basis, you have to expect some kind of retribution from that."

If i can kill you reliably, you're in a 3 point clan, and you give any sort of positive challenge bonus, then you're on my list. Unfortunately, I'm at that level that everyone gets to, then decides to sell their char as a forger, dropping the score massively, making negative bonuses, all so they can start a NCB and get to the same place they were four months ago... So yes, my choices are limited. Sorry Revelator and Leodagraunce.

QBJohnnywas February 15 2007 3:57 AM EST

I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that it's how things are. I've been there myself; doing that fighting high thing at a lower MPR than those around me. You get farmed into the ground by the teams that have been up there for ages.

What you've got to decide is what is more important: the challenge bonus or the clan bonus. Which is going to gain you more xp and cash?

You_are_going_to_get_farmed. The only way around that is to not be in a clan or get yourself into one of the clans populated by the top ten while at the same time making yourself unbeatable by all except those people.

The other thing is to stop taking clan participation so seriously. See it how some see it; a bit of fun competition, a way of being more social at fighting level.

Flamey February 15 2007 4:30 AM EST

I was going to make a thread about this, but I'll make this a long post, instead.

I've noticed, at my stage, this only applies for my stage, MPR/PR/Score, I found that, I can get a higher challenge bonus by fighting people not in clans, which of course is understandable. Right now, my Fightlist ranges from 2 mil - 1.4 mil score, It used to be 1.8 mil - 1 mil, but I rented a weapon to fight higher. My PR was at 1.1 mil, I was getting a negative challenge bonus, because I didn't want to spend my BA on a 6 person fightlist.

NS mentioned rentals, I thought what the hell, I rented, and added a few people and added a few people in non-clans, all of those with 1.5 - 1.8 mil score.

I could get a consistent ~50% Challenge Bonus, or thereabouts, or fight in a clan to get 50% tops and basically to 0%, for the sake of a 14% bonus, I wonder, would it be worth it to just quit clan fighting? It seems like the Challenge Bonus outweighs the clan bonus received, even at the top spot of 15%, my clan is a top 5 clan, almost always a ~14% bonus.

Now, where I see it viable to be in a clan and fight clannies and for it to be worth it is the top of the game. Almost everyone at the top is in a clan, so it is worth it, because you're going to be fighting those people anyway, why not get a 10 - 15% bonus?

Am I delusional or not? Is it even worth it to fight in a clan? when you're around my score, it seems like a big wall, which wont be climbed over for a long time, especially with no NCB/NUB.

Sorry to hijack, but I believe my observations on this matter relate to this post.

Vicious Cat February 15 2007 6:00 AM EST

"Is it even worth it to fight in a clan?"

Well - since there are no negatives associated with being in a clan - YES

"when you're around my score, it seems like a big wall"

Then you are looking at it wrongly. Accept the *bonus* as just that. As has been stated the rewards for challenge bonus far outweigh clan stuff.

Flamey February 15 2007 6:02 AM EST

you can't fight those members and still be in a clan, and get a positive score, let alone a decent positive score.

Shelingar February 15 2007 10:28 AM EST

Unfortunately ... the people who opt to fight a 3-5 person clan fightlist in the end only make it worse for themselves.

By contributing to such a heavy pummeling on someone, thy force that person to decide between a clan bonus or to concentrate on maximum growth. There are sweet spots where you can do both. But certainly where I am now I am getting hit by people that even with active defense I have no hope of beating. I am not going to spend hours each day exclusively on the 2-3 clan members that will enable maximum rewards. So I either widen the band to include clan members down to 50% challenge bonus or include non clan members so I can have a decent fight list with >90% challenge bonus.

The choice is pretty simple for me, so I will likely be leaving my clan today. Making those who are left behind concentrate their attacks on even fewer targets. Perhaps when I am bigger it will be worthwhile again, certainly once getting high challenge bonuses is no longer as feasible.

In that sense CB1's system encourage more participation in that forge/farm clans widened the possible target net and dispersed the load. The trouble now is that the focus is so narrow that only those who buy all BA and primarily target clan people can actually maintain a positive score.

I know there was another option put forward recently with regards to non-linear clan scoring. Perhaps if that is implemented a lot of this will become moot.

QBsutekh137 February 15 2007 11:01 AM EST

Hatchet, I just have on gratuitous comment for you:

Clans are stupid.

If you don't like them, don't be in one, or be in a singleton and see if that changes the negativity portion of your clan score.

If your response to this is: "Gee though, Sutekh, I _have_ to be in a big clan to be competitive...", then you should be joining me in my fruitless tilting at the clan windmill. Clans are stupid, and samey, and suck the life out of the game for more than a few people, and about the most emphatic response you will get from someone who tolerates clans is a "Well, gotta do it," accompanied by a shrug. If we all have to do it, and enough folks find it drudgery, then it seems just as fruitful for all of us to NOT have to do it. Whether we all get 11-15% bonus or all get 0% bonus, why is it even relevant any more? At least that's the question I keep asking myself. I'd rather see people stand out by finding good strategies and reaping good score/PR rewards than it simply being about who you can align with and whether or not you can make it high enough on the score ladder to get out of the killed-by-huge-clan-opponents doldrums.

Like I said, tilting at windmills. *smile* But at least try to be consistent. If you don't like what is happening, get out or fight against it. Don't just realize how downright inane it is, sigh, and then continue with the inanity.

AvoidCXT February 15 2007 11:43 AM EST

I think you may be on to something there Sutekh. After playing my butt off to hold top mpr, then quitting and returning, I think this game is a lot more fun when BA is not quite a life-or-death matter. That's really all clans do is give a bonus to whoever spends the most BA. But, if clans do stick around, hatchetman is right that there should not be such a large disadvantage to having 1m pr.

QBsutekh137 February 15 2007 11:59 AM EST

Yes, I agree... And I know my zealous stance is a bit of "throwing the baby out with the bathwater'... I just hate that I need a C in front of my name, even though it doesn't change a bit in the way I fight, or how much I fight. The C is so...vestigial. I can't even imagine it firing up a new player much beyond the initial blurb on the main page. Then, the new player hits the "wall" at the spot Hatchet is coming from, and that's nothing but a negative feeling. I think the NUB and NCB sort of camouflage the negative effects of clans, because folks think, "Hey, I'm going gangbusters here!" But you'd be going gangbusters if clans weren't around, too.

It's all about upside/downside with me. I keep asking for folks to sound off about rabid, passionate love for clans...that they thrive on it and enjoy it and really feel comraderie. I get snippets back, and some folks really do get stoked by clans and make some great friends (though, of course, the same bonds could be made without clans -- none of my long-term bonds in CB-land stem from clanning). But it seems to me like a large group is just "meh" about it, and a small (but growing) group are really disenchanted by it from direct experience with it.

AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] February 15 2007 1:04 PM EST

Also see this thread for other suggestions, I've been finding this a huge problem for a while, and I guess it is difficult as Jon hasn't addressed it yet.

Vicious Cat February 15 2007 1:15 PM EST

I've been in a singleton clan for ages. Not the same clan, every few weeks I stop playing long enough to get disbanded, and it is easier in some score bands than others (It's great at NCB level!!).
To me, if clans stayed the same, that would be fine, if they changed that would be fine too.
I'm with Sutekh on one point - as far as I can see they add nothing really to the game the way they are implemented at the moment.

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] February 15 2007 5:24 PM EST

I agree sutekh, they are a little pointless. Just a bit of fun, an added twist to the game.

Then again, I must say I also agree with hatchetman that it should be more evenly spread, new players can score X amount of points on average, 1mil MPRs can score the same and the top ten can do the same.
If that is truly not going to happen on the current system then I think a change would be good.

However if there is no change, that's fine by me too. People just need to suck it up. It's just a clan after all. It should be a judgement call on whether your character will benefit more from being in a clan or not being in a clan, if the answer is to leave your clan then that's what you do. Every other character coming through the ranks will have to do the same.
If it's that you want your clan to succeed more than you want a high MPR, then start an NCB.

Eurynome Bartleby [Bartleby's] February 15 2007 5:31 PM EST

Err, can someone explain my thick self since when an NCB is good for clan fighting? Of course you gain tremendous XP rewards need boatloads of cash to buy BA, which is absolutely required to succeed...

If what you want is to be in a top clan, let's say top 5 and you don't have 30 mil at your disposal, NCB is

I tried that.

TheHatchetman February 15 2007 6:59 PM EST

Ash, I'm assuming the NCB comment was directed to those who could actually afford one...

AdminNightStrike February 15 2007 7:37 PM EST

Ash: I hit the Top 20 with my first NCB with buying very little BA... maybe once a week during XP time.

Eurynome Bartleby [Bartleby's] February 15 2007 7:54 PM EST

You talking about your char or your clan NS? I am aware it is possible to get to the top of the char list without buying anything. Much dedication can bring you there. But can you maintain a top clan without buying ANY BA? And not completely forgeting the meaning of the word ''sleep'' XD? I think not.

This is not a rant. I was just curious, how can an NCB be beneficial to clan fighting? To me fighting in a clan is something you do AFTER the NCB, to ensure faster growth...or am I missing something? Because with the heavy farming at some levels, you just need to buy BA to fight enough to offset that insane farming.

AdminNightStrike February 16 2007 1:36 AM EST

I was single clan

Vicious Cat February 16 2007 6:13 AM EST

With NCB you get farmed less
And, assuming that the chars higher up aren't on NCB, those that do farm you today are positive points tomorrow.
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