Questions about Multiple Hits per Round (in General)
February 15 2007 1:00 PM EST
I just have a few questions about Multiple Hits (Ranged or Melee) (Why is Melee not in the CB Dictionary?)
1. Is 4 the max hits you can get in one round of attack?
2. What is the main determining factor in how many swings or shots you can take? Is it the difference in dexterity or is PTH involved?
3. What amount of dexterity or PTH would I need to obtain maximum attacks per round on a 20 Dexterity Mage with no evasion? (Mage is not in the CB dictionary either... Odd...)
4. If 4 is the maximum, then with an HoC the maximum shots in the first round the rises to 8?
I don't think there is technically a maximum to the number of times you can hit. I know it's based on DX gap between you and your opponent and the PTH of your weapon.
From what I've heard, at max DX gap you have 100% chance to hit twice with a +51 PTH weapon. NS did some research on this and he has all the exacts.. there is a thread about it somewhere.
First, the dictionary appears to be case sensitive.
1. No, there is no upper limit. However, there is a practical limit based on your wallet.
2. Eventually, PTH becomes the more important factor. Specifically, the difference between PTH and DB.
3. No max. However, you need a +29 weapon with a maximum DX advantage to guarantee a double hit.
4. There is no maximum, but it won't be easy to get 5 hits.
Your DX advantage can boost your chance of hitting (chance to hit, or CTH) to at most 166% with a one-handed weapon or ~137% with a two-handed weapon. Beyond that, it's all PTH. each successive hit incurs a -100% penalty, and for hits 3 and above, the DX advantage upper limit is 150% for all weapons, not 166% or ~137%. If after subtracting the successive hit penalty, you are positve, you get a bonus 5%.
[All of the following assume a maximum DX advantage] >> To guarantee doubles, you need a +29 one-handed weapon. To guarantee triples, you need a +145 weapon (one or two handed doesn't matter at this point). To guarantee quadruples, you need a +245 weapon. Etc.
February 15 2007 1:22 PM EST
Very good... thanks for that, NS...
So... anyone know the approximate net worth on a x 1 (+145) ELB?
February 15 2007 1:24 PM EST
Moosh, get yourself a +100 Elb and chuck on a ToA of about 450k level....
February 15 2007 1:26 PM EST
I'm not using a ToA, I'm using an SF with Junction, HoC, and AG's... but my WA is all going into my bows, so I'm was just wondering how much NW was a +145 ELB without taking x into account.
February 15 2007 1:33 PM EST
Pricey...lol....you might be better off getting more damage in under that WA. It all depends on how much damage you'll do on say triple strikes, in comparison to one hit of high damage.
Of course then you've got the problem of missing if your PTH is low. But you've also got evasion to factor in. 500k level evasion gives you about 85 evasion. If you've spent loads of money on the PTH it's a shame to see so much of it reduced by so little xp investment on your opponents part....
February 15 2007 1:45 PM EST
Eventually, one of my ELB's will be higher than that, if I don't stop there... I just really want to know how much of my eventual weapon allowance this +145 is going to take, on a single ELB... anyone have a ballpark?
February 15 2007 1:48 PM EST
A rough estimate: it's smaller on the PTH than you're talking and the changes to damage upgrades screwed up the NW on some of the older weapons. But:
Tennis ELBow [6x5700] (+130) worth $73,626,244
Work out the damage cost - what's that about 7780 or something per X multiplied by 5700. Then take that away from the total NW to find out an approx value of the PTH..
It will be approx but you should be able to glean some idea of what it will cost you...
February 15 2007 1:49 PM EST
7798 per X.
February 15 2007 1:51 PM EST
Meanwhile, a x1000 bow coupled with about a million strength and +10 Belegs will give you around a million damage per hit........and cost very little.....
February 15 2007 1:52 PM EST
Approximately 30m for +130 then... Thanks.
x100,000 with 10,000,000 ST hits for zero damage when you miss.
+130 = $29,177,644
February 15 2007 2:00 PM EST
Basically my strat hinges on three damage dealers... (4 with my SF...) and if I don't win in ranged, I'm doomed... I use HoC, ELB, Seekers, BG's on two of my minions... One who is a pure archery tank and the other who is an AS enchanter, with archery, and a set amount of ST and DX... Then I have an MM mage with junction, SF, HoC, AG's... I understand that I am going to get smoked by certain types of teams...
So, this means (since no ToA) that my tank is not up to par with other tanks of his MPR... So I'm focusing more on DX (maybe 2/3 DX - 1/3 ST for a while) as I have only +33 DX bonus but have +47 TSA for ST... so I'm going to have to focus a bit more on PTH with my weapons (my main ELB on my tank ((probably about 2/3 WA on tank and 1/3 WA on Mini-Tank/Enchanter))) I figure I have to focus more on DX just to hit a tank or evasion minion (and to possibly be missed), even though it won't be for as much damage as it should be... I'm trying to even this out by getting BG's and the big TSA, but we'll see what happens in the long run.
February 15 2007 2:06 PM EST
Yup NS, if it misses that's money down the drain too lol!
February 15 2007 2:16 PM EST
I just want to shoot 16 seekers and 4 Magic Missiles in the first round... with my own gear... so that's what I'm going for.
February 16 2007 9:43 AM EST
So if you trained archery to 1.00, does that mean your CTH modified by the weapon is 100% for an ELB instead of the 33% for a 2-handed weapon?
February 16 2007 10:20 AM EST
I have hit 5 times in a single round both in ranged and melee. The most I hit with the HoC in round one of ranged was 8 times though. I had a +100 ELB, +15 arrows, 1 mil DX and a 2mil+ ToA.
Glory, wearing an HoC adds another round, so you did not hit 8 times in a round. You hit 4 times in two successive rounds. Similar with your 5 hits -- it was 2 hits and 3 hits in two separate rounds.
Kong: If you train Archery to 1.0, then the equations should be as I listed. If it's less than that or zero, then there will be a severe penalty to your DX advantage.
archery does NOT effect dex based chance to hit
Novice -- you were the one who proved that it doesn't affect PTH... or did I get that backwards? I forget now. Archery affects something, at least.....
Jon stated that Archery doesn't effect dex chance to hit, I showed Archery wasn't working, and JW gave really convincing evidence that the ToA's plus to hit isn't penalized like the bows plus is (I believe it's 1/5 of normal without Archery).
February 16 2007 4:20 PM EST
So... what does Archery do then?
without it, your bows plus works at 1/5 it's normal effectiveness
so a +100 bow would act as a +20 weapon...
not a whole lot for the investment...
February 16 2007 4:31 PM EST
Ok then... so basically, if I want multiple hits per round, archery is a must. Very good, lots of good info in this thread, thanks all.
February 16 2007 6:53 PM EST
If that is the case, what about crossbows and slings? Do they work 100% of the PTH or is there a penalty in ranged rounds?
even with Archery there are still penalties to hit in rounds 1 and 2 for ALL ranged attacks, but the plus from xbows and slings works just fine without it...
February 16 2007 7:00 PM EST
I believe archery works only for bows and not crossbows and slings. So, you are penalised on the PTH of bows if archery is not trained?
February 16 2007 7:04 PM EST
That means using a bow is really a waste of nw if you are not training archery. You are better off using a crossbow or sling and training the experience from not using archery to strength or dexterity.
February 16 2007 7:11 PM EST
Bow is good if you have decent amounts of dex and a ToA. At a certain level: at least 30 PTH from a combination of the bow and ToA (so not very high in either) you will hit. Add a certain amount of dex gap...I've been hitting triples today with 50k dex, 45 on the bow's PTH and a ToA of 50k level (dunno how much PTH bonus that adds).
You can use a bow with a ToA and see results. Without the ToA, if you don't train archery you will probably only see doubles. The lack of archery penalty doesn't seem to extend to ToA PTH. So if you plan to be say a bloodlust tank with an ELB to back it up, use a ToA. If you want to go evasion and use an ELB, use a ToA. You get the message...ToA ToA ToA ;)
In that case, don't train archery and instead dump all NW into the X. Use a x10000 +1 bow, and get all of your PTH from your un-penalized ToA.
February 16 2007 7:45 PM EST
February 16 2007 7:48 PM EST
But you will have to avoid most evasion teams. We can't let them get away with that ;) (I also have an evasion minion :p)
February 16 2007 7:50 PM EST
You'd be surprised what the ToA PTH and high enough dex can achieve versus evasion. UC for instance, if you have evasion of your own, doesn't stand a chance...and before the changes to evasion that was definitely not the case
February 16 2007 7:58 PM EST
I can only get high dexterity if I was single minion. Not quite possible with a 4 minion team unless I train less HP. My ToA tank is training strength and bloodlust only. Should I train everything into dexterity and a little to bloodlust instead? The PTH from my ToA (about 1.1 million level) should be about 80.
February 16 2007 8:05 PM EST
Kong, you're training AS right? So you do have a little room to stop training HP for a while. Training dex is almost as good for avoiding/soaking up damage as HP. I'd say for the amount of ST you have you would be performing better with about 500k dex. But it all depends on how many times you're hitting currently. If you up your dex and let the ToA take care of PTH you can improve your overall damage.
How you train is completely dependent on what timescale you're working to. I always work in this way: concentrate on a single stat per minion for about a week. You might not see improvement quickly but in the long term it works out for the best.
February 16 2007 9:54 PM EST
Nightstrike, I hate to explain myself further but I feel the need due to your obvious condescending post toward my post.
Yes I did hit 5 times in one ROUND, and yes I also hit 8 times in one ROUND. The HoC adds an extra attack for the first round of ranged, so in the most simple terms I can utter, you are dead wrong.
The 5 hits were NOT in two rounds and were not caused by the HoC because I got a quintuple hit a long time ago with my Minotaur Character.
Also, how is quintuple not in the spell check??
1 - I wasn't being condescending at all. I'm sorry you took it that way.
2 - The HoC doesn't add an extra attack. It adds an extra round of attacks. There's a huge difference there. If you think otherwise, then show me where you can get 7 hits in any round other than round 1. The required PTH would be absolutely huge, even with a ToA.
February 17 2007 3:37 AM EST
For technical reasons, its easiest to explain the HoC as basically replaying the 1st round. You initiate a whole new attack with it, which is why you can double your # of hits (rather than swing only one additional time) and also have your same minion change targets. That being said, as long we know *what it does* its just an arguement of terminology.
February 18 2007 3:28 PM EST
From the wiki on the Helm of Clearsight Page:
"Allows for an additional attack in the first round of ranged combat."
I read that as an extra attack on round one not an extra "round of attacks". How much clearer need it be? That is why the entire re-targeting discussion(s) was hashed out so thoroughly.
February 18 2007 3:35 PM EST
I'm pretty sure it's an extra round of attacks, because I regularly shoot 4 arrows a piece with my two archers, and their ELB's PTH is nowhere near where I need to be at for triple hits... so I think it's a double hit, two times, in round one.
The wiki is wrong. I'll go fix it.
Wiki's fixed. Again, if it wasn't this way, then without the HoC you should be able to get 7 hits in round 1 with your aforementioned setup. That wouldn't happen (I would sincerely hope, since if you can get 7, that means you'll always get 6.)
February 18 2007 5:48 PM EST
I think we are miscommunicating somewhere. A hit and an attack are not the same thing. The three terms involved are round, attack and hit. Round is obviously an entire set or attacks and/or hits. An attack is comprised of one or more hits. So, when I say "an extra attack" in round one, then I mean exactly that. I get two attacks in round one with the HoC. In a normal attack I can do up to 4 hits, and since the HoC grants an extra attack in that round, I can do up to 8 hits between the two attacks in the first round.
And to further my previous statement. I have seen and made quintuple hits in a single attack both in melee and ranged as a ToA tank.
"I think we are miscommunicating somewhere. A hit and an attack are not the same thing. The three terms involved are round, attack and hit. Round is obviously an entire set or attacks and/or hits. An attack is comprised of one or more hits."
I have never once ever heard anyone differentiate between a "round" and an "attack" the way you just did now. When did you create this definition for "attack"?
round - a set of attacks by multiple minions
Hit - a one time blow from any minion, one [XXXXX]
Attack - Could be any blow from any minion, FB for instance, multiple hits [XXXXX], [XXXXX] in one round of firing
Ah, that makes sense, smallpau.
February 18 2007 11:03 PM EST
Isn't that what I said above??
February 18 2007 11:09 PM EST
As I said previously, its a terminology thing. Like 4 or 5 of us have said the same thing already in this thread.
This thread is closed to new posts.
However, you are welcome to reference it
from a new thread; link this with the html
<a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0021wg">Questions about Multiple Hits per Round</a>