DM grossly overpowered (in General)

lostling March 22 2007 12:18 AM EDT

i mean like -.- is there like 80% on any other enchantment? and like no scaling, aoe effect, personally i think something should be done... the only thing with that kind of % is the DD spell coc at 95% i believe...

Nerevas March 22 2007 12:28 AM EDT

Like I told you in chat, its not about effect vs. effect. It doesn't matter that say Haste has a 68% effect and Dispel has 80% because dispel reduces EDs by level.

Level 1000 Dispel: effect of 800
Level 1000 Haste: effect of 680
Resulting Haste after Dispel: Level of 200, Effect of 136

When you use a strategy that relies on several ED spells, of course you're going to be extremely weak to Dispel- that's why it exists. The counter to it is RoS but you refused to use so there's not much more to say =)

[T]Vestax March 22 2007 12:31 AM EDT

Overpowered you say. Time to switch to DM then!

Tyriel [123456789] March 22 2007 12:36 AM EDT

1) Just because it's good against you, doesn't mean it's overpowered. If it does... CoC, FB, EC, Evasion, MM, high PTH, and big bows are overpowered, because they're good against me.

2) It ONLY works against defensive enchantments. It's absolutely useless when there are none. DE's have the benefit of always being in use, EC is almost always useful, and AMF is like DM in this respect.

3) You need a BIG DM to affect DE's. Whereas other spells don't need as much to be effective, like AMF and Protection.

4) RoS.

I feel like I'm missing something, still, though...

If you don't like being weak to DM, adjust your strat, or suck it up.

[T]Vestax March 22 2007 12:42 AM EDT

It's true! He's weak to MM.

lostling March 22 2007 12:44 AM EDT

based on lvls? aint all ED spells based on levels? frankly i have no idea what your trying to say here... of course i know that there are many ways to counter... but the fact remains that only dm has 80% unmodifiable effective levels

[T]Vestax March 22 2007 12:47 AM EDT

Think of this way. Every 5 levels of DM decreases the opponents EDs (AS, GA, VA, GS, Haste, and Prot) by 4 levels. If the opponent has any levels of ED left after that, they get the effect for that level of the ED.

DH March 22 2007 12:50 AM EDT

I dont think DM is going to be much of a problem with your strat. Eventually you are going to no longer hit in ranged combat Vs evasion, then you'll run into high AC tanks that pretty much nullify your bow attacks to near nothing due to the fact you have to split your NW between 4 bows. DM is actually not that strong...imagine if you were an all Mage team and someone had a big AMF...its all about your strat. Ethereal chains is OP vs 4 man team tanks as well good luck stopping that one too. Id say your weaknesses to alot of spells should be more closely examined

lostling March 22 2007 12:52 AM EDT

as i said... like for all EO spells they are AOE and they can affect the same spell cast by different minions multiple times and with the same effective lvl... so you end up with 80% x 2 vs 68%

DH March 22 2007 12:54 AM EDT

you can compensate for that by adjusting your strat. if you are open to constructive advice im sure most of us vets around here could help you realize your idea with a bit of tweaking

Tyriel [123456789] March 22 2007 12:55 AM EDT

If you think EO's are so overpowered, why not use them?

Yes, splitting up EO's are more efficient. That's why lots of people are doing it.

DM is also BEST (or close to it) against a strat like yours. All XP in 4 DE's with no RoS to back it up. Perhaps make a less DM-vulnerable strat, then laugh at how underpowered you think DM is, all of a sudden.

AdminNightStrike March 22 2007 12:59 AM EDT

"Ethereal Chains is OP"

What's that mean?

[T]Vestax March 22 2007 1:00 AM EDT

Yup! Your point?

One DM at 125k can cancel out up to 4 ED at 100k. If your opponent has four ED, then your DM devastates them. If your opponent uses only one ED, then you spent more XP to cancel out an advantage then your opponent spent on getting that advantage. If your opponent doesn't have any ED, your DM is just wasted XP for this fight. Also, if you over-invest in DM and it becomes enough to cancel out the opponent's ED twice over, you've got wasted XP on your hands.

Your team would be better as a two minion team of enchanters. One solidly into GA and one into Haste, rather then divide the same XP into four weaker minions all casting ED.

DH March 22 2007 1:01 AM EDT

i was refering to the fact that EC "seems" overpowered Vs a strat like his that utilizes 4 ranged attackers of non magical nature

[T]Vestax March 22 2007 1:03 AM EDT

Solidly into GS I mean. Not GA.

AdminNightStrike March 22 2007 1:51 AM EDT

ah... didn't realize OP meant Over Powered

Nerevas March 22 2007 2:09 AM EDT

The effect of any given ED (like 68% for haste/gs) has nothing to do with how dispel will affect it. The effect of dispel actually represents the amount of *levels* that will be reduced from any ED spell. In other words, dispel is 25% *weaker* than any equal level ED spell.

Flamey March 22 2007 2:28 AM EDT

Nere, I thought it was 20% not 25%, meaning DM's effect is 80% of its level.

To the main point. I'm sorry to say, but you either don't understand how DM works fully, or you're REALLY stubborn. DM is NOT overpowered, it is basically useless against all Single Tanks and Mages, disregarding Protection because that's about 50k XP or so. DM also gets screwed over when you use a RoS, yes that's right when you use a RoS, again for effect, RoS. 25% of the tattoo level is a DM shield, basically.

Also, what you say about DM having an effect of 80% and that it is not fair for that reason, is absurd. It doesn't matter and Nerevas provided a lot of examples and explaining to you how it works and that it doesn't matter what the effective level is of the ED.

IMO, DM isn't overpowered at all, I barely get dispelled and the ones that tend to get dispelled are the less important enchantments, meaning there is a reason why I put less XP into them.

Nerevas March 22 2007 2:49 AM EDT

Its 25% weaker in that, you would need a dispel 25% higher than a given ED level to dispel it completely. 1.25*.8 = 1

Flamey March 22 2007 3:10 AM EDT

I don't understand how that works mathematically, but okay.

lostling March 22 2007 3:27 AM EDT

dispel has its uses

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] March 22 2007 6:55 AM EDT

Flamey, imagine both a DM and an AS were at level 1,000.
DM would have an effect of 800 which then leaves AS with a level of 200.
to completely nullify this you would need around another 25% of your current DM since 200 is 1/4 of 800. 1.25x800=1,000
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