Advice on a strat change? (in General)

TheHatchetman April 14 2007 7:23 PM EDT

I'm thinking of retraining my team "The Hatchetman" My tank would be moved to the front, and equipment would be changed around like so:

tank: HP:655,051; ST:564,334; DX:608,432; BL:150,000 (I'll need to raise that...)
Equipping: ToA, HoE, EB, TG, AoI, MS, Axbow, MH

Evasion wall formerly known as mage:
HP:500,000; Evasion:1,000,000; AMF:750,000; Protection:173,277
Equipping: EG, EC, DB, AoF

Mage wall formerly known as enchanter: HP: 450,000
Equipping: EH, HoD, CML, SC, TG, AoAC, MgS

This will be such a simple strategy that I'm sure there must be holes in it somewhere, just not sure where... My tank's HP will be relatively low, but the MH should help that a good bit. DM/AMF would both wasted against this. Archers would have a helluva time even trying to make a dent against my team. 750k AMF would be devastating to most spread mages, but would may not be enough against singles. But this just seems too basic, like there must be gaping holes, but I can't see through them... Advice?

deifeln April 14 2007 7:35 PM EDT

Don't use DBs on evasion wall...use EBs you'll get some AC and the EBs stack better with Evasion. Have you considered making one of your walls a PL battery?

TheHatchetman April 14 2007 8:12 PM EDT

I figure my Evasion will be so high, that the additional defensive DX from EB would be unnecessary, and that the only thing I would need to compete with would be huge weapons backed by an equally large ToAs/ No doubt that DB below +75 would be useless, but i was thinking big here. ;) Do you think PL would really help any? And where? My Evasion wall would be the only one with the XP to support it atm, but i dont want it to die to a mediocre DD so that a tank is free to ravage my team...

This was going to be my test drive while i stockpiled money and equipment for a NCB where I planned to use a single RoE Archer (Original, eh?) until ~750k MPR, when I'd hire the Evasion wall. Then, wait until the end of my NCB to hire a heavy AC wall and a mage wall. Minions to be placed in the order that they were named.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] April 15 2007 9:07 AM EDT

Keep in mind that EB's also raise your skills as well as dex... thats why they would stack better.

QBsutekh137 April 15 2007 3:01 PM EDT

If you are going for DM-immune, then maybe just make Protection base and invest the rest in more evasion or HP? Just a thought... You might want to ask JohnnyWas his thoughts, as he has done the dual-wall idea before, I think.

QBJohnnywas April 16 2007 3:40 AM EDT

I have done dual wall teams a few times now. They take some beating. However, the lack of space for enchantments can be a handicap. As you say, your tank (and the rest of the team) has fairly low HP. This isn't a problem if you're going for the quick kill, but over a longer period it can mean you lose out.

Unfortunately the only way around that with the team you have is to take on another minion and start training AS.....

The main problem you'll face by the look of it is high dex/high PTH single archers. They may hit your evasion guy no matter what, and you may not hit them unless your axbow PTH is high enough. If they hit your wall your team will be done pretty fast. But of course they are pretty rare..... ;)

I wouldn't worry about mage teams, the wall/amf combo should take care of singles mages even, unless they are really huge.

The other thing I might consider to make the most of the walls and lower HP would be using a ToE and investing a lot of cash into the weapon PTH...

Of course that assumes you have the cash to pay for that lol! ;)

QBJohnnywas April 16 2007 3:44 AM EDT

Oh, and EBs on the evasion guy definitely, as big as you can get; the way evasion stacks with DBs means you won't be getting as much evasion as you think you get. EBs will raise your evasion considerably without impacting as much on PR as well....

[T]Vestax April 16 2007 4:02 AM EDT

Also, the effect of EBs grows with your MPR. As you climb higher, their benefit continues to scale. DB's on the other hand require constant infusion of money in order for them to remain useful. DBs have their place, it just isn't in an Evasion Wall minion.

TheHatchetman April 16 2007 4:04 AM EDT

Thanks for the input, but I'm not sure EB would be better... Even +78 DB would add ~441.6k worth of lvls to the evasion effect. with 1m Evasion, +26 named EB would only add 280k lvls worth of effect. While it will add defensive DX, I can't imagine that would really be an issue, I'd think the pth-lowering effect would be my main need, right?

[T]Vestax April 16 2007 4:15 AM EDT

Not really, you get more out of evasion then just defensive DX. Evasion also multiplies in levels in ranged rounds. Also, as I said, EBs grow with you at every level. DBs on don't.

Let's say that you have +50 DBs. Against a foe who only gets one attack on you, that cuts their damage, on average, by 50%. However, as you climb higher and higher, the enemies get more PTH. Eventually the enemy has 2 full attacks. Now your DBs only, on average, prevent 25% of the damage. Simply put, EBs scale better if you can't afford to upgrade them all the time and if you can spare the xp to invest into Evasion.

If you didn't have evasion, then yes, DBs would be the best way to go. However, to evade purely on DBs alone is maddening. You can put that money to good use in other places.

TheHatchetman April 16 2007 4:22 AM EDT

don't DB also multiply during ranged rounds? If so, then I can't see EBs being better than even +78 DBs until I'm at least 1.6m Evasion, and by then, I would have the money to up the DB

Nerevas April 16 2007 4:35 AM EDT

DBs do not get multiplied in ranged. I would only recommend DBs over EBs if you were rich enough to keep them at the same level as your evasion skill's effect. Honestly, its best to go EBs and put the money to better use elsewhere.

[T]Vestax April 16 2007 4:48 AM EDT

DB (+80) [NW $8,822,969]
EB (+30) [NW $8,733,544]

(+80) Evasion = 468,483 levels of Evasion
468,483 levels / 30% = 1,561,610 levels

You're right that roughly a +80 set of DBs gives off the same amount of negative PTH as a +30 EBs only when Evasion is about 1.56 million levels.

However, first of all we are already talking about some big big numbers in cash and you aren't yet considering all the other gear you want to upgrade. Your team is very NW dependent. Wall-Tank-Wall teams always are.

I'm also 99.9% certain that DBs are nothing like Evasion and don't multiply in ranged rounds. Hell, I'm absolutely 100% certain the more I remember. The defensive DX is the icing on the cake and can amount to another 25%-40% CTH reduction from the enemy. Yeah, after going through the math, I find it really can be that big of a difference.

[T]Vestax April 16 2007 4:59 AM EDT

According to CBstuff (thanks Shade), if your defensive DX was equal to the opponents DX, she/he would hit you with a +50% chance from DX alone.

If she/he has 30% more DX then you, then she/he will hit you at a +100% chance from DX alone.

So, if your opponent had 30% more DX then you had in natural Evasion, adding +30 EBs subtracts 50% from the opponents chance to hit. That my friend, is a huge difference.

Kong Ming April 16 2007 5:11 AM EDT

I agree that DB are no good unless it is really big and it is only useful at lower levels. At higher levels, a big EB is the way to go ;)
But your evasion level eventually becomes more difficult to train because more experience is needed to raise the level so gears become more crucial. A combination of AoF, EB, EC and EG can raise the level really high.

QBJohnnywas April 16 2007 5:50 AM EDT

ok, the strength and dex on your tank - is that pre ToA? Forgot to ask? Because if it is, you can probably stand to lose some of the trained strength and move it across to HP/bloodlust, although I'd keep the dex where it is.

Protection: you could probably afford to have that smaller. To get a level of (20) you only need about a 60k prot. Which is small enough to be NOT a waste of xp when you're up against DM teams. But still gives a pretty good damage reduction. And gives you xp you can use elsewhere. Actually, you could put a protection of that size on your tank. It's small enough not to dilute him; AND would free up an enchantment slot on your evasion guy; maybe to train that AS I was talking about earlier....
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