My Idea of Ultimate Uberosity (in General)
April 27 2007 5:23 PM EDT
When creating a minion (or just an applied button if using on a created minion) you get to choose a race for that minion... These races wouldn't confer any Bonuses per say, but would alter the EXP per point ratio to certain Stats/Skills...
Ogre: ST and HP are cheaper, DD and Archery are more expensive...
Elf: DD and Archery are cheaper, but HP and ST are more expensive...
Dwarf: HP and Blood Lust are cheaper but DD and Evasion are more expensive...
Halfling: DX and Evasion are cheaper but Blood Lust and ST are more expensive...
Troll: 2% HP Regen and ST is cheaper but DD damage (against) is +2% and all skills are more expensive.
Human: No penalties or Bonuses... (also, + to lameness, and can't see in the dark...)
More to come...
Would add to strategy and RP purposes... You love it... Don't lie.
April 27 2007 5:25 PM EDT
I do like that. A lot.
April 27 2007 5:26 PM EDT
I definitely do love. If I had time to actually think I'd throw out some other cool ideas, but I'm too lazy and "under the weather" right now. However! This would be a dramatic change that would spell out to something like... C-B-3
April 27 2007 5:29 PM EDT
Can minion class be changed later, thereby reorganizing the trained stats based on the class characteristics (with a possible penalty in there)?
I can see "human" being awfully popular to handle changemonths... Also, any newly added skills would show bias unless everything new was careful not to align with any one class...
April 27 2007 5:49 PM EDT
Well, I think that the race option should only be available once, because a mage can decide to train to be a fighter, but an Ogre can't decide to train to be a halfling... Anyway... I think it would add a lot of flavor... But about the stats and skills, I think that trained stats and skills should be automatically re-math'd and the EXP change would just add or take away from the current stats...
Anyone got any other race ideas?
Golem: Permanent Damage Reduction (Endurance) but all skills and stats are more expensive (maybe not too too much Endurance or EXP cost penalties... or alot of both! Who knows?!)
(This is one that could be added in addition to any race perhaps? Except some races like Golem maybe?)
Vampire: 10% VA bonus (or permanant VA ability of some nature) and evasion is cheaper, but DD and HP are more expensive...
Can't think too too well right now, but I'm sure more will come into my head soon.
April 27 2007 5:53 PM EDT
The race option has come up every so often, not in the way you've described. Mostly to do with weaponry. You could give bonuses for all elven gear on an Elf for instance; or make it so a ogre or troll could use a Morg with no penalty, but a human would suffer a dex penalty because of it's weight.
I do like it though.
It is a cool idea. But my only gripe with it is that I for one, love to make my minions very abstract. Take the case of my active char's second minion. I mean, ''Drunken Belligerence'' can hardly be given a race XD
Would need some kind of ''Other'' race, or an ''Immaterial'' one. Something along these lines, you get my drift I'm sure.
Indeed, the strategic depth brought by this idea is immense and I like it.
April 27 2007 7:19 PM EDT
Well... maybe there could be a list of traits that each character could pick one trait when picking their race? Each race might have a few traits of it's own as well as a pool of universal traits...
Drunkard: Some sort of damage reduction but penalty to PTH or DX? (All races except Vampire and Golem minions)
Eagle Eye: Bonus to ranged PTH but penalty to melee damage (ranged weapon or melee weapon...) (Elves & Halflings)
Short Temper: Bloodlust bonus or ST bonus in Melee but penalty to defensive DX... (Ogres, Dwarves, Humans, & Trolls)
Ethereal: AoI effect with huge weapon penalties (to damage due to lack of muscles, perhaps?) (Vampires & Golems)
Stubborn: DM effect (1/5th of total minion MPR on that minion only) for all enchantments cast upon that minion... Hmm... that's a positive and a negative, maybe no other penalty need be incurred?) (All Races)
Lucky: Defensive DX and PTH get bonus but rewards take a penalty. (All Races)
Vengeful: GA effect (only on that minion, 1/5th of minion MPR) but (can't think of a good penalty...)
Just some ideas... throwing stuff out there... even if the traits aren't implemented, I think the Races would be great for RP and strategy...
April 27 2007 8:23 PM EDT
Races would also have to give mages something to play with, and I fear they wouldn't, really. Mages are already a race... A lot of these other races involve different kinds of tank... Are mages getting left out once again? :\
Actually, maybe mages should get left behind... Turn it completely over to more conventional races, and then prevent all transfers and make CB3. Would it lose its CB "essence" if that were done?
April 27 2007 9:55 PM EDT
Well these were just brief ideas of what some races COULD be... I'm not finalizing any of this, was just giving examples, so other people would throw examples back or change my ideas...
There could certainly be races that were strong for mages... I think Elves are already proficient at magic and then we could have Ogre Mages or High Elves or anything anyone suggests! This is all just theoretical and fun to play with! Cmon and suggest something, will ya?
If you want a race that is good at EO's and ED's figure it out!
Very nice idea.
But I think it's getting a bit too complex.
Imagine, you're a new player, never seen CB before.
Previously (or, rather, _now_) it's simple; you start with a minion, you buy a whip, you click the fight button about a million times until you can kill Koy.
Under the new system, it's like Hire a Minion, somehow know whether you want to be a mage or fighter, how walls should and shouldn't be used, whether you will ever use evasion... etc etc. Whoa, my brain is overloading says the NUB.
Basically, I really like the idea, but it must be kept simple:
Human - no penalties, bonuses.
Elf - DD and Archery are Cheaper, HP and ST more expensive. Can choose: ED advantage (but comes with equal disadvantage to EO) or EO advantage (but comes with equal disadvantage to ED), or no extra adv/disadv.
Dwarf: HP and BL are cheaper, but DD and Eva are more expensive. Can choose: Drunken Master
Halfling: DX and Eva are cheaper, but BL and ST are more expensive. Can choose UC advantage (but disadvantage to HP) or ED advantage (but disadvantage to HP) or no extra adv/disadv.
Orc: Advantage to HP and ST, but disadvantage to Archery and ED. Can choose Troll-Throwback (1% HP regen but disadvantage to _all_ skills/spells/intrinsics) or Blood-Drinker (10% natural Vampiric Effect in melee, but disadvantage to _all_ skills/spells/intrinsics), or no extra adv/disadv.
I mean, even this is very complex, but it's goal is to "invert the pyramid of choice". Start with less choices, but each of the fewer choices "opens up" into more choices.
Have another choice for the NUB when they start, that says "I am totally new, I don't understand, just give me a human minion and let me play around" - basically, what happens now.
Um, another point - MMVG mentioned that the race should be unchangeable except when/if Jon gives a free retrain. If a free retrain is given (due to massive changemonth changes or whatever) then I agree with Moosh - you should be able to change the race of your minions. But other than that, the race should be unchangeable.
OK, now another thought just hit me: what if the game started/is exactly the same as it is now; but when you hit, say, 100k MPR you are given a free retrain and the ability to choose races for your current minions, and to choose the race of any minion you buy after this point?
That, for me, would be ideal.
You're playing, fighting, having fun. You reach 100k MPR, and you get a special page "Congratulations! By now you should have some idea about strategy, how to utilise different spells and skills effectively, and how to leverage items. You now have the option of retraining your minions for free, and to choose races for each of your minions! Also, from now on, whenever you buy a minion, you will be given the choice of what race it should be. Read the wiki carefully to see what advantages and disadvantages each race provides! Be careful - once you have chosen their race, it cannot be changed!"
That way, you are not overcome with the complexity of the race system until you are "mature enough" (in game terms, comprehending most of the game) to make an informed decision, and not to be overwhelmed.
Well, nice idea MMVG; what do you all think?
This all sounds sweet. I like the idea of races for your minions. It would add something very fresh and new to the experience.
April 27 2007 10:42 PM EDT
Well... I don't mind your idea so much, other than that Ogre was taken out and that Orc was put in... Orcs are dum... Moosh am Oger and Moosh kill orcs enee time... Also, with Trolls, there is now a reason to use an RoBF with success!
I'm going to link my spreadsheet picture to the next post, but want to explain it first...
-EXP means that the skill will cost less to train, how much less? I don't know... I'm bad at math and it would take some testing anyhow...
--EXP means that the skill would be even cheaper...
+EXP means it's more expensive...
++EXP means much more expensive...
These are just ideas...
Ogres FTW! And being an Ogre will be bad for my team overall, but I don't care! MOOSH AM OGER!
April 27 2007 10:46 PM EDT
Well I'm agin it. Nope ! Well I do like it . I'd like to see it except for the bare troll butt due to the no pants policy of the management . If Jon would just give us pants it would beautify the game so much .
well i like the idea but it can be abused to easily say
evasion wall hmm its got to be halfing
and tank well thats easy troll/orge
and archer well elf with toa
see you would just be giving more bonuses to what we already had
April 28 2007 5:20 AM EDT
/me gives this idea the 'Inde - sign of approval'. :D
April 28 2007 9:22 AM EDT
Well, that's the beauty of the whole thing... every mage isn't going to be a certain race... maybe many will be the same race but there will always be those who try different strategies out...
Gear is always available to even out the penalties that certain races incur, like Troll (RoBF), Elven (HoE, TG's), Ogre (Elven Gear and AG's)... etc... obviously this gear isn't going to make all races created equally, but it would always be possible to have an Troll FB mage (would be odd, but still... Troll with TSA would be fun)... and halflings aren't relegated to Evasion wall, just because they are good at evasion... what about a halfling SoD tank? Who knows, there could even be another Class (T, M, E, W, ?) that sprouts up because of these races... I dunno... glad to hear that most are enjoying the idea though... If anyone can think of any other races or kinds of stats that the current races should have different, let's talk about it!
April 28 2007 10:40 AM EDT
I would think you should be able to change your race.... ie like character name changes, depending on what realm you are in "Gondor" charge 400,000 CB.
just a thought.
April 28 2007 11:09 AM EDT
Maybe each race will give bonus to different spells, skills and other attributes. So if you have a elf trained as a mage, it will give bonus to missile magic and a halfling trained as a mage will give bonus to fireball. That would make things really interesting. The same can be applied to enchanters and tanks.
April 29 2007 12:08 AM EDT
Maybe my limited understanding of real strategy on CB will show here, but I don't really see this adding much to the game. As it is, you want an ogre, just train heavier on ST and HP and call it a tank like we already do. I think this would only amplify existing strategies instead of creating new ones. The only thing I see that isn't in the game now is the reduction of flexibility to change strats along the way.
The only way I think this would add any strategy is if you could not have certain races on the same character (as I recall Elves, Dwarves, Humans and Halflings, don't really get along well with Orges and Trolls) or add some additional penalties if you have "unlikely partners" much like "shield and ranged" penalties that we had on CB1 if my memory serves
see an idea like this and maybe weapon affinity would sound like a cb3 idea
Pff, no need for CB3. Cb2 is still only in it's infant stages as I see it. Quickly evolving, but still an infant.
April 29 2007 5:25 AM EDT
I like it, good thinking Moosh! ;)
April 29 2007 11:53 AM EDT
Well Toitle, the strategy mentioned will be that some races may look suited for one class (M, T, E, W) but may in fact be suited very well for another less obvious class... A troll is going to have a DD penalty perhaps, but it regenerates HP... there are a few mages out there who are trying strategies out with Mages in TSA's for regen, but this could replace or even stack with that plan... Things like that... I mean, again, these are just ideas and by are no means finalized or even noticed by Jon yet, perhaps... The races and stats I put were just brief ideas that could be interpreted in many different ways and could be changed to fit game mechanics accordingly...
Also, Ogres and Trolls do not normally get along with the "smaller" races... but Dwarves don't really like Elves for that matter... and Humans don't like anyone really (Sometimes not even their own families!)... Elves have a superiority complex, making them stand-offish towards most other races, and Golems and Vampires are seen as monsters, even to Ogres and Trolls, I'm sure... but remember that this is a combat oriented game... and top level warriors and mages for strange alliances when power is involved... I can honestly see a Human mage striving for power, hiring a monsterous Ogre to watch his back... there may be tension there but being tested in battle together quickly forms a bond that is hard to break (unless the mage let the Ogre get hungry!), or even a Troll Berserker taking on a Halfling traveling companion who can help him get in and out of places that would be tough without a partner of such skills... War forms strange alliances... and this is War.
But actually, your questions brought up another idea... what about (with the races implemented) that teams would have a "Relations" stat, maybe... (1 - 1000) or something that could be worked with to not be so quick to max out? Basically, this stat could represent tensions or coherency and trust within the team... Certain races would have harder times getting along with each other, Ogres like Trolls but Dwarves HATE both... Elves cohere with each other very quickly, but have a penalty against all other races... Halflings can cohere with any race quickly (except Ogres, who tend to eat them...), things like that...
A group of all the same race would have a bonus to start and would cohere quickly, probably, but wouldn't be well rounded... and a very well rounded team would cohere more slowly but be more efficient...
Anyway... now that I've explained how the stat is equated, lets get on to what it could do... this is the hard part and I'm not too sure if any of these are good so I waited until the end... BTW, these are all very hard to code I'm sure, but I'm just throwing stuff out there...
1. Relations under 500 would confer small penalty to rewards perhaps? While NCB and NUB were strong, you might not have great coherency so don't learn as much...
2. Relations higher than 500 would confer a small bonus to rewards... This would be very helpful when NCB and NUB came to a close...
3. Relations grow with time, (how much time depends on racial tendencies towards eachother) but can fall by being defeated too many times... (Easier to grow than to fall, so people couldn't be relations farmed TOO too easily, perhaps?)
4. Relations that were high (750+?) would get small bonuses to stats and skills, making them all function better (as a team who is very familiar and confident in their partners)
5. Relations very high (1000 or perhaps 950+) would give some bonus to stats, not insane, but a during battle boost, or could even give that team the ability to choose a team trait (dunno what sort, at all, just brainstorming) that would stay with them while they were in that 950 - 1000 zone... (Team Traits Examples: Treasure Seekers (extra money rewards), Dedicated Scholars (extra exp rewards), Holy Travelers (1/8th MPR in GA free?) I dunno...
6. Now that I think about it, 1 - 100,000 would be better, easier to calculate when getting in 5000 fights a day... just a thought.
7. This whole idea would suck if you were single minion... but, when you got very high, and hired some minions, it would take you a bit to get up to top relations (and all this while you were battling some top teams, with top relations!)...
8. Also, all my ideas for what could be given to these teams with high relations dealt with money and EXP mainly, but there are a million different things they could get to help them... But I'm not the man for that job, mechanics are not my thing... Small endurance for the whole team? Small evade bonus? More PTH in Melee? Bunch of stuff... brainstorm with me...
9. Ogres are the key. (3 x 3)
April 29 2007 11:58 AM EDT
Jon, I plan on winning the lottery (Powerball) fairly soon... how much would you charge me to build this game for me? I mean, I'll be pretty rich (in the hundreds of millions hopefully) so I can hire you on a lot of coders, I just want you behind the main mechanics... And... I want it done (or playable) in under a year...
Just give me an estimate and I'll work it out, see if I can swing it.
April 29 2007 12:02 PM EDT
Also... current human mathematics is based on a system of 10's... 10, 100, 1000, etc... if you could, I want you to form a new system of mathematics based on 3's... or if there is any ancient system based on 3's, I want you to use that system... so... since most coding systems I'm sure are based on the 10 system, you may have to create another operating system and coding system to fit inside, to make this game... so... I figure that'll take at LEAST two months... so I'll give you 15 months total... (Extra month of pay, even if you finish early!)
April 29 2007 1:38 PM EDT
Other than being slightly joking in the last two posts (I actually do plan on winning the powerball, which is really depressing every 3 to 4 days...) if I do win the lottery, I'll be needing a bunch of like minded CB/RP freaks to come up with great ideas for the game...
Also that, and this post is the only thing that really makes me check into CB2 right now, (other than the occasional sign in out of habit... which usually ends with me checking the post and spouting off something then leaving...)
So keep me around... I like this idea and want to talk about this... to people other than myself and the people I know IRL who don't play/care about this game (who pretend to be interested for 8.7 seconds (Avg. # of seconds from 25 different test subjects...) before putting on the "WTHeck are you talking about?" face... I usually go about 180 - 300 more seconds with what I'm telling them about and then can't bear to hurt them like I am, anymore...
Either that, or convince Jon to just post "Forget it..." in this thread... then I'll be free from the game which has taken up 1/4 of every day for 1.5 years, so 4.5 months (or 7.46% of my total life) in play time...
(Side Note: That's all the math I'm willing to do for this project, so we'll need some math minded people here too!)
April 29 2007 3:07 PM EDT
Well, I once voiced this idea long ago and got shot down. And I'm going to voice the same thing that was told to me. While at first glance this idea seems to add depth, does it really?
Tanks use this, mages that, archers this. What kind of ideas can you voice that would stop it from becoming the whole "If I use one handed, I go VB, if I go two handed, I use morg" thing?
April 29 2007 3:21 PM EDT
That's why you balance the races so there are many choices for each class... Dwarven Tanks do mass damage, Ogre Tanks take and do good damage, Troll tanks regen, Elven Tank Archers... Halfling Evade SoD, Vampire Evade Melee, Troll Mage, Dwarven Wall, Ogre Wall, Troll Wall, Elven Mage, Elven Tank, Halfling Evade Mage... work out a few more race options with E capabilities with differing attributes... Some races would be better than others at certain things but should not be limited to those classes... there are many types of each class, in game already, these races would just supplement that...
April 29 2007 4:13 PM EDT
You would need.... I'm guessing 10-20 races. If you did that, it could be interesting.
April 29 2007 11:57 PM EDT
I agree... the more race choices would make for the most combinations, but it would also make for a lot more coding... but I'm all for it, since I can't code! My skills are geared towards fantasy and creativity, I guess...
But what other races would you suggest? Everyone is saying, "I like it!" but not throwing in many ideas for races... just mentioning that I don't have enough to make it evened out isn't a help, since we aren't to that stage at all...
Centaur: Good Archery, very good ED's, Good ST, Poor DD and Poor Evasion. (Also, with no ranged weapon a Centaur can Charge in the last round of Ranged and attack in melee (with UC or Melee weapon equipped) negating the last round of ranged perhaps? (For both teams, enemies are disrupted, and allies don't want to hurt you... mages still fire normally.)
Minotaur: I dunno... good tank. Does something neat... They are just awesome, so I figure they deserve a spot (unless it's to replace Ogres!)
Fairy: BAD HP, BAD ST, Good DX, Great Evasion, Great EO and ED. Kind of only good for E at this point... or an Evasion wall... I dunno, think of something to make them cool enough to pick for another class...
I'm tired... got awful awful news tonight... if it turns out bad, I'll be gone at least a week... if it turns out good, you'll notice I'm happy.
April 30 2007 12:12 AM EDT
I don't like it. I like to retrain and change my strat often (unless I'm in forging mode), and this would do nothing but hinder me, to be perfectly honest. =\
It'd help others, I'm sure. But for me, it'd just be another pain in the rumpus.
April 30 2007 12:47 AM EDT
Just pick Humans then... simple as that.
What if one of the races was Keynan, and they had mad endurance. Or a race called Sativas, who have natural confusion (makes the enemy attack themselves). Maybe Werewolves would get a major boost to all stats when there is a full moon (day or night). I like it
Also Pimps, who have expensive ST but make their team fight harder and get daddy's cash.
Drag queens could have cheap ST and DX (their clothing flexibility extending to combat) and trolls and ogres like having them on their teams.
Children of Uranus (the planet) could ignore CoC from enemies since they are used to cold, while their own would be leet.
Mercurians (from Mercury) could be the same with FB.
just some NUB ramblings.
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