Bows firing in Melee (in General)

Can we start making archers take the one round penalty just like melee tanks have to take? I mean... What the heck? If a melee user wants to get that, they don't get a bow. But if a mono bow user just accepts the penalty, they get it. 'Tis a bit unfair. Just... wanted to voice that.

I have posted about this quite a few times.

It is indeed quite unfair that if an archer without a melee weapon equipped gets into melee, they fire the first round of melee.

While those that use a melee and missile weapon have to wait till round 6 of combat to start reattacking.

That difference can easily be the difference between winning and losing. That is giving the archer 5 straight rounds of combat to work with.

I'm running a ranged attack only team. For the most part I don't need a melee weapon, as most of my fights don't go past 4 rounds. I think the same is true of a lot of archer teams.

But don't forget the penalties for using a ranged weapon in melee. They can more than make up for being able to fire, despite massive amounts of pth.....

Yes, true about penalties, but against walls and high HP minions (the minions that tend to survive) huge amounts of DX or PTH is rarely required. Also non-evasion mages and heavy tanks. The penalty is not excuse to let them fire early.

Yes, what you say can be the case, but I take 80% penalty on my dex/PTH, and I do less damage - as much as 50% lower on average in melee. OK, so I'm not one of the big bow users, and I can see how that can make a difference.

Doesn't actually bother me either way; I've never liked that one round penalty for weapon switching; but if you penalize all tanks I'd be prepared to say how about the mages? Personally I'd say get rid of it for all rather than add it to other fighters...

Lol, I do agree with balance. But considering mages are already waiting for melee just to deal full damage, I'd be careful penalizing them -too- much. And penalizing CoC at all would make it worthless.

I wouldn't mind losing that round, as I said most of my battles don't reach there ;)

And personally I think if somebody is setting up as a ranged attack only they should be aiming to finish their fights before melee. With all the benefits ranged has you shouldn't need one more!

Considering an equal NW ELB does over 4x the damage of an equal sized MH, a 60% hit to damage is still more then most MH's do.

And if you have a TOA, the decreased PTH and dex may not mean that much.

But 5 consecutive rounds of an archer attacking while the melee tank if using an exbow or axbow gets to wait is a bit off.

Um...I thought the whole point of this change was for realism, having to take the time to put up your bow and unsheathe your sword. If your still using the bow what prep work do you have to do?

Um.. Shields and bows.

what about shields and bows?

o O'Rly, 5:36 PM EDT
Um.. Shields and bows.

Don't shoot the messenger. This wasn't discussed in the change. All I know is I thought the change was originally for realism. Not all shields necessary have to be wielded they can be worn. This has been discussed in previous posts, but this isn't what this post is about and sorry for the thread hijack.

you can wear it on your forearm, that's why there are DX penalties. Because you don't have full use.

Nothing is done in this game because of realism. If realism is achieved, it's a nice bonus, but it's always an afterthought. The main focus is fairness.

The penalty takes huge effect on normal archers, and their bows are quite ravaged (effectiveness-wise) in melee.


ToA archers, however, can take advantage of all the broken tattoo's PTH and DX to continue beating through the penalties.

yes OB ;) you and your TOA rant :x but yea... if jon would change how PTH work and make it linked to DX maybe it would make more sense

I've been championing linking PTH to DX for a long time, and I'm all for it... but I think I realized why it's an issue. People can use DX to defend (defensive DX) and have no PTH. You'd have to really foul up defensive DX to make that work well.

i think PTH should be linked to DX the way wepon x is linked to str lol

I'm all for Dex* over TOA for PtH......
*note top trained dex minion

A skill that lets a tank "Run Faster" into combat would probably be too difficult to manage.
At 1, they are can attack in the last round of ranged, and below 1 gives a penalty to hit and increased chance/damage when they get shot. Perhaps above 1 gives a bonus for charging? It would be interesting, but completely not worth it.

For realism, whether someone would put their bow away in or before the first round would depend on how much they like shooting stuff. Or if they were ordered to. A point blank shot with a bow is very likely to hit and wouldn't lose any momentum (So would hurt more). But then you get cut in half, because it's harder to parry. If you were an up close and personal kinda person, then you're going to put your bow away really quickly and bury you sword into the first thing you can reach with it.

For fairness, we would probably want to have no shooting in the melee rounds, simply because the elbow is just so damned big and scary. Any limit to it's use would be great :)

I think it is fine as it is and not because I'm also a ranged focused team ;) There are many ways to deal with ranged attacks and not all ranged teams have bows with huge PTH. EC, evasion, GA and DBs are some ways to stop them. If you really have to do something, then the culprit should be the ToA.

this game isn't about realism, as soon as you hear "Fireball" you can't use realism as an excuse.

You can't use enough EC on them, Evasion wont make them miss, Not enough HP and trained level of GA for GA to work full effect, No one uses DB and Evasion.

The average strategy will be torn apart by ELBs. Not enough GA, not enough Evasion, not enough EC, not enough HP. If you focus on one thing, though, you can beat them.

I think bows firing in melee is fine the way it is. I'm probably a bit biased when I say that, but oh well. :P Perhaps a penalty to damage as well as DX and CTH would be best. I'm sure losing 25% of 1m damage wouldn't hurt them too much.

Agreed, their blows are usually overkill.

Actually, archers are not really that powerful without their ToAs. So its the ToA that gives too much strength and PTH.

I thought we were talking about the ToA?

Oh, we are? ;)

There is already multiple penalties for fighting with an elb in melee, I don't know why you want more, you must not use one, so you are just guessing that it's normal. My damage is cut by just a bit more than 50% in melee vs ranged, and you want to nuke it even more?

50% of what? 50% of 2 times the max HP in the game = killing blow, regardless.

So yeah, there do need to be some limits. I am not saying that is where your damage it, but just saying "hey, it's already cut in half!" is not a defense in and of itself.

Sut Sut Sut, if you want to get technical, Damage is already cut in half and fires every other round in melee, so that's cutting it in 1/4 already. So what ever % it gets further reduced is doubled in effect. And Technically, in melee, I can do more damage with my MH than I can with my Elb. But that 5th round usually takes care of anyone else that is left. So why give someone a free hit on me if I don't have to?