New weapon and skill idea for crossbows (in General)

The penalty during melee combat for crossbows is currently 40%.

What if a new skill (lets call it Crossbowman) similar to Archery would be applied to crossbows during melee combat?

The Crossbowman skill could proportionally reduce the penalty to crossbows as follows when the effect varies from 0 to 1:

• Heavy, Assassin, Enforcer crossbows penalty reduced to min 20%.
• Light crossbows penalty reduced to min 10% (easier to load than the bigger crossbows).

And then comes the new weapon...

A Hand Crossbow

• Base Damage is 3.
• During melee rounds, base damage raises to 5.
• The 40% crossbow penalty is applied during melee rounds.
• If the crossbowman skill is trained to an effect of 1, melee penalty is 0%.

I really like this idea. I think it makes a lot of sense and would give crossbows a much needed popularity boost.

I now await comments, rebukes, praises, and taunts with anticipation.

I think the hand xbow should come with a lesser draining ability. (It drains, but at a lower rate.) Also, in ranged, can we replace it with a better ranged weapon?

ex/axbows are extremely popular given the linear damage cost.

Bye Bye to 3 mil ST/DX in one hit.

I agree with Flamey. Adding a drain to the Hand Crossbow would be giving it a bit too much power.

The objective is to allow crossbow wielding tanks to dispense with the one round penalty needed to switch between their crossbow and their melee weapon.

Crossbow users need all the rounds they can get in order to be able to kill opponents before they themselves get killed. Crossbows deal low damage compared to the big bows and the SoD equipped with explosive shots. So giving crossbow wielders a much needed extra round to deal damage would be great.

That is why this idea came to me.

I think what you want is some kind of repeater xbow

This thing allows firing 15 bolts in 10 seconds, so let's say 15 rounds of combat with no "ranged weapon in melee" penalty. It fired light bolts, not the standard armour piercing heavy bolt, thus your base 3 damage.

Of course after 15 rounds, you're on your own. Ranged + 11/12 melee depending on HoCs.

Thanks Yukk!

That weapon is definitely a better fit than a hand crossbow. Same specs could apply with the added round limitation.

The restriction could simply be that after 15 rounds, a round is skipped while the minion reloads the repeater crossbow and then combat continues as before.

If this were added, there would have to be a "Rebound" skill to be able to defend against it.. Would there not?

I don't think so. There is no "Floppy String" string skill to defend against Archery. So I don't see why a skill specifically used to counter a Crossbowman skill would be needed.

In Melee, would you be able to use the crossbow AND a 1-handed weapon? or just the crossbow itself?

Skill Idea

Ignite Bolt:

Allows a crossbow user to wrap their bolts in flammable materials and ignite them setting their opponent on fire, doing a DoT.

Zach, I assume that this would be a two-hander like most bows.
Consider that this isn't a fully automatic weapon. The user
has to recock the string with a big lever for every shot.
Maybe you want a "wield sword with one foot" skill where your dex is halved because it's hard to hop and dodge and attack at the same time, or maybe "Teeth of steel" for reloading orally. I guess this would give you about -90% to hit though because you'd have your face busy with your xbow instead of looking for a target.

:)

"The objective is to allow crossbow wielding tanks to dispense with the one round penalty needed to switch between their crossbow and their melee weapon."

Wouldn't that just leave users who invested in melee weapons more in the dust?

"Crossbow users need all the rounds they can get in order to be able to kill opponents before they themselves get killed. Crossbows deal low damage compared to the big bows and the SoD equipped with explosive shots. So giving crossbow wielders a much needed extra round to deal damage would be great."

Crossbows are meant to seek out tanks and drain their stats, not deal damage. The melee weapon is what is supposed to be the main damage source.

Or maybe I just missed the complete point of what you were trying to say :P

"Crossbows are meant to seek out tanks and drain their stats, not deal damage. The melee weapon is what is supposed to be the main damage source."

Well, that depends in which weapon you are willing to invest the most and what kind of strategy you are using. For example, my single tank depends on the AxBow to deal the most damage to opponents and leave them powerless to hit me and/or easy to hit when/if the fight reaches the melee rounds.

My last 2 ideas (this one and the shield bonus for tanks wielding only a single handed melee weapon) are meant to create new options for tank teams. You might argue that tanks already plenty of options. I counter by saying that a new option, if it's well thought before being implemented, is always a good thing.

We really don't need a reprise of the "Ranged Weapon Extravaganza" that has happened several times already. The paradigm lately seems to dwindle around the notion that it's ok to surge ahead in one area to make up for the gargantuan excess manifested in another. The fact is that bows have burst beyond the boundaries of slightly commodious damage ranges into the positively absurd. The TOA is no help in restoring any semblance of reality. So why turn around and do the same to crossbows when the effective answer is to reduce normal bows?

Wow! You actually had me laughing there, NS. You got me with "paradigm" and "commodious".

MiniMem (Trillion) 24.243.158.195 NightStrike (The Iconics 3e) $20 -- $20 word 11:06 PM EDT
MiniMem (Trillion) 24.243.158.195 NightStrike (The Iconics 3e) $20 -- $20 word 11:06 PM EDT

"reprise" is the word of the day :)

So it is... Well done!

MiniMem (Trillion) 24.243.158.195 NightStrike (The Iconics 3e) $10000 -- Word of the Day! 11:39 PM EDT

:O

I barely understood that, and I thought the default level of language on CB was pretty high, we don't need something like that now, NS. :)

NS, my idea's objective is not to overpower anything. The main goal is to give players more strategy options.

On another note, that word contest is getting out of hand. LOL! I think that Minimem has attained his desideratum.

Modifying game dynamics to encourage crossbows in melee is just as falacious as doing similarly for normal bows. Consider the consequences of firing a stat-draining crossbow every round of melee at the already inflated PTH levels where Evasion is scaled back to a 1:1 ratio. Granted, I would revel in the newfound ability to inflict dubious amounts of damage, and would immediately untrain all of UC for ST/DX. But would that be fair? 20% is paltry in comparison to the subsequent surge of DX. Combine that with a TOA, and I'd be a formidable foe indeed.

Then you should do that right away. Since everyone says that your crossbows can drain millions of DX points per round, surely that herald's that when the melee rounds arrive, your opponents should have little or no DX left to dodge AxBow shots. So why not do that right away?

Let me tell you why...

(1) Crossbows deal small amounts of damage compared to most other weapon types.
(2) You would simply become mage fodder without the huge damage your UC deals during melee.
(3) Simply surviving the first rounds of combat against SoD and ELB users without the defensive DX granted by UC would become a fleeting desideratum.

So although I predict there would be an upsurge of ExBow users if this skill would be adopted, I don't think it would be overpowering.

1 - My Exbow damage and UC damage are about the same.
2 - hahah... "huge", he says!
3 - UC doesn't grant defensive DX directly. It grants Evasion to some degree, but it's much more efficient to just train Evasion, as only 1/3 of UC is evasion (2/3 with CG and likewise, you then lose the TOA).

So why don't you switch from UC to Evasion and a BoTH or MH? I think I know the answer. But I will let you supply it.

Also, for obvious reasons, it would be impossible to use Evasion with the new skill, and you would have to sacrifice a rather large amount of XP to keep the skill effect at 1.0.

So I still don't see how the Crossbowman skill would be so overpowering. I think it would simply offer new strategy options.

I don't switch because I want the strat to work, and I'm stubborn.

You're right about the skill conflict, though regarding the XP investment -- how much XP is required for 1.0, and what is the skill pegged against? DX?

The skill would be pegged to ST like Archery and Bloodlust because you need enough strength to reload your crossbow quickly enough. So it would probably be similar to Archery and require 25% of ST level to have an effect of 1.0.

I can only see the Crossbowman skill working for people such as yourself; because you invested such a great amount into your crossbow and your strategy depends on having enough rounds to hit. And besides, training a skill costing more than BL just to take out a crossbow's penalties doesn't make much sense compared to using a melee weapon + BL. It'd do a lot more damage - I don't really see your motive to continue attacking your enemy tanks in melee with low damage after their stats are already drained...

"and your strategy depends on having enough rounds to hit"

I meant you couldn't afford to lose the range-to-melee switching penalty

Fanta, the idea did come from my current strategy. It creates a possible variation of the strategy for other users who might want to try something similar.

That is also why I proposed a new crossbow type, which Yukk proceeded to ameliorate by suggesting a better alternative.

I am also suggesting this idea for crossbows because they deal so little damage compared to Slings + Explosive Shots and the Elven Longbow. That is a limiting factor in my opinion.

Like I keep mentioning: I am just trying to come up with ideas to help create new strategy options.

If you read my recent idea posts, there have been quite a few, they all have a goal of creating more strategy possibilities rater then nerfing or overpowering existing strategies.

But still, the point of crossbows isn't to deal damage; at least, for most.

My suggestion does not give existing crossbows more power. It just creates a new way of using them. You wrote yourself that it would only work in certain strategies similar to the one I am using now. It broadens the strategy possibilities for users and that is a good thing.

The new crossbow type would be for users who want a weapon that deals decent damage (more than other crossbows, but less than the ELB and SoD+ExShots) and allows them to try out a type of strategy that has never been tried before.

I don't understand what the bad side is?

Well using your logic, why don't we just add tons of new spells and weapons? It creates more strategy options, no? For example we make a DD spell that attacks the back minion and makes a little splash to other minions.

Why not just implement that? More variety is always good right?

And back to what you're saying - I don't think it's fair to have a weapon that can be used in BOTH range and melee. You can fuse your NW into one strong weapon that is useful in all rounds instead of splitting the power into a weapon only good for range, and one only good for melee. Example: instead of having an ELB x1000 +100 and a Morg x1000 +100 to cover range and melee, you could make a Crossbow x2000 +140 that is used in both rounds, and not have switching penalty.

It's just not right.

Nicely played, NS and Talion-- fallacious and ameliorate and herald respectively.

MiniMem (Trillion) 24.243.158.195 NightStrike (The Iconics 3e) $20 -- $20 word 9:28 PM EDT
MiniMem (Trillion) 24.243.158.195 Talion (Talion v1.0) $20 -- $20 word 9:28 PM EDT
MiniMem (Trillion) 24.243.158.195 Talion (Talion v1.0) $10000 -- Word of the Day! 9:27 PM EDT

"Well using your logic, why don't we just add tons of new spells and weapons?"

That would be a great thing. However, you can't just implement any type of spell or weapon, you need to think it out first (something you obviously haven't done before stating your idea example).

"For example we make a DD spell that attacks the back minion and makes a little splash to other minions."

That is stupid example. It would simply be a more powerful version of MM. You need to come up with a limiting factor that would make it a alternative to MM instead of a more powerful version of the spell.

"And back to what you're saying - I don't think it's fair to have a weapon that can be used in BOTH range and melee."

You can do that right now. So are you saying that the system isn't fair?

Why hasn't anyone boosted an AxBow to insane levels yet? Anyone could use the strategy you are describing and hit any target during melee because they would have no DX left to dodge anything after the ranged rounds.

AN, if you look at the top dogs, a lot of them only use the ELB because they do not even want to reach melee rounds. Or they use a smallish melee weapon so they can the greater part of their WA for the ELB and still have a chance to finish off opponents if they reach melee. They are both very common strategies.

"Example: instead of having an ELB x1000 +100 and a Morg x1000 +100 to cover range and melee, you could make a Crossbow x2000 +140 that is used in both rounds, and not have switching penalty."

Fanta, you couldn't simply use the weapon right away. You would need to invest lots of XP into the Crossbowman skill first. Also, if you have that skill, you cannot train Evasion or Bloodlust on the minion to respectively help it survive longer or deal insane amounts of damage during melee.

That is why my idea is simply an alternative to using melee weapons instead of a more powerful option.

A Named Enforcer's Crossbow [4x3333] (+167) worth $83,186,783 owned by NightStrike (The Iconics 3e)

Clumsy [4x1200] (+171) worth $66,480,368 owned by Shadowsparkle (Failure)

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Coupled with a nice ToA, you're ST/DX is gone, especially with that Exbow, that should be able to wipe it out.

It doesn't take so much exp, its just like any other tank training Archery or BL.

And yes you can use only one weapon for melee and range, but it's extremely ineffective... you disregarded the melee penalties for range, and I think they only attack every other round.

And my example could have been discussed just like this one.

It wasn't stupid; you assumed that the minion in the back would take equal damage as if it was an MM. MM does what, 42% trained level? Just make it 35%, splash 5% on the others.

with that example, I don't think there'd be any reason to use that over MM.

The DD are designed for equal pros and cons and are all different.

When I tried using only my AxBow, while my BoTH was being forged, it fired during every round of melee.

However, I find that I win more fights, although not necessarily against the same opponents, when I use my BoTH (because of the VA effect). And that applied even when my AxBow NW was greater than my WA. I even had to rent a smaller AxBow to use with my BoTH while waiting for my WA to become big enough to cover both weapons.

I don't have enough money to keep up with my WA anymore, but I am certain that both strategies would end up winning me the same amount of fights, but not against the same opponents... Wielding only a huge AxBow, I would probably win more fights against opponents depending on DX and bigger damage. Wielding the AxBow/BoTH combo, I would probably win more fights against opponents depending on HP and protection rather than high damage.

Using the skill I am proposing would probably only be effective if the new weapon I am proposing comes into play also, because without Evasion, I would have a lot of trouble lasting until the melee rounds. Even with a huge AxBow.

My current crossbow is over x2000 and my ST is over 800K. Still, Elven Long Bows with half the x's deal more than 4 times the amount of damage I am dealing with similar ST. I imagine that the proportion would be halved if I equipped myself with a pair of BG instead of a pair of EG, but still, you get the picture.

"My current crossbow is over x2000 and my ST is over 800K. Still, Elven Long Bows with half the x's deal more than 4 times the amount of damage I am dealing with similar ST. I imagine that the proportion would be halved if I equipped myself with a pair of BG instead of a pair of EG, but still, you get the picture."

Do ELBs seek out tanks and drain their ST/DX? No.

And okay, maybe that example is pretty bad but still it would work in a situation like mine, because after my DM is cast I'd like to take out the enchanters with only 20 HP instead of wasting so many rounds killing little enchanters.

Fanta, you are turning around the pot. You have given me no valid reason why my skill should not be adopted. I explained before why the existing rare crossbows would not be overpowered by this skill, I will not do it again.

Also, apologies for calling your example stupid, but you hadn't specified anything. You had just mentioned a DD spell like MM but with splash damage. So that simply implied a more powerful version of MM. With your clarification and some tweeking, the idea could have some merit.

Okay fine. I can't find a reason not to implement it, but it just doesn't make sense to use a crossbow in melee. There's nothing wrong with your idea, I just can't see a crossbow being a main offensive weapon.

MiniMem (Trillion) 24.243.158.195 Talion (Talion v1.0) $20 -- $20 word 8:19 PM EDT

Like I said in a previous message, I could use my AxBow right now. Come to think of it, if the skill existed, I would probably not even train it on my char because I can use my AxBow without the skill just fine. The only reason I am using my BoTH is that my target lost suits it better. But that can change and I will not hesitate to ditch my BoTH for a while to use only the AxBow if it kills more targets.

read: "my target -list- suits it better"

I suppose it would only be useful if it reduced the penalty to 0% for all xbows