Why Belegs? (in General)


Brakke Bres [Ow man] December 6 2007 9:56 AM EST

Increases damage dealt with any ranged weapon during ranged combat: an additional 3% damage per enchantment point.

Why is it 3% increase to damage and not to skill like alatar's?

Ulord[NK] December 6 2007 9:58 AM EST

3% increase to archery skill? That would be an interesting nerf to archer. Sadly, belegs would then be rather worthless.

Aargh [Closer to the Stars] December 6 2007 9:59 AM EST

The only ranged skill is Archery, so if Beleg's added 3% to that, it would be useless for people who use a sling or crossbow.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] December 6 2007 10:01 AM EST

yes but is 3% not a tad bit too much, with all those huge damages ranged weapons are pumping out?

Ulord[NK] December 6 2007 10:06 AM EST

Agreed. That's why evasion is so overpowered to counter the massive archer damage. A beleg nerf is not a bad idea to bring that damage down. However, the sod, xbow users do get the shorter end of the stick. They too would be nerfed...

Brakke Bres [Ow man] December 6 2007 10:52 AM EST

i thought the whole idea of Jon was it so battles lasted more then 4 rounds? The belegs contradict that. any modest pair are +10 and that is a whopping 30% bonus they get to already huge damage. So?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] December 6 2007 11:00 AM EST

So train a huge evasion... No Elb except two in the game can hit my 202 evasion... and thats the two usd Elb's. When I was running Vlad I had a 130 some odd Evasion and most elb users still couldn't hit that... and that was only with about 900k trained level. The only thing you need to think of... is if you can last into melee with an evasion char... then the archer will never hit you with the 60% penalty to ranged in melee. So think about it...

Talion December 6 2007 11:00 AM EST

"However, the sod, xbow users do get the shorter end of the stick. They too would be nerfed..."

I don't think crossbow users would be affected. You can't use a crossbow as your main damage dealer. You use it to render your opponents harmless.

So nerfing the BG would actually result in an increase of sling and crossbow oriented strategies... imop.

Dark Dreky December 6 2007 11:19 AM EST

"So train a huge evasion... No Elb except two in the game can hit my 202 evasion.."

Mages have to worry about XP dillution. We have no way to increase our damage other than with XP, the limited mage items (that cannot under reasonable standards be increased with USD), or using a weapon on some other minion.

I agree with a Beleg's nerf. Or make Alatar's Gloves and CoI add 3% to skill or damage.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] December 6 2007 11:41 AM EST

Why do mages need a bigger boost than what they already got this change... Mages spells now do much more damage because they can put more points into their spells and get a greater effect... I know Conundrums Coc increased about 800k and that right there is a huge increase in damage. There is almost no hope for an Amf to keep up with that and with the addition of NSC... mages can completely negate up to 15% Amf for a very reasonable amount... Up in the higher ranks I know 15% less amf is nothing to sneeze at.

Ulord[NK] December 6 2007 11:47 AM EST

It would be reasonable to bring the PR weight of Beleg to the level of NSC and AG. it always strikes me as odd that Beleg weighs so much in PR while doing the same damage amplification function (to a higher magnitude I may add) for tanks as AG is for mages.

Evasion is THE counter for archer as it stands right now and a very effective one at that. So if you are losing to large archers, you may want to get an evasion wall. That's how this game is suppose to be played. You adapt to rule, not you wait for the rule to change in favor of whatever strategy you decide to pick. Get with the program.

Ulord[NK] December 6 2007 11:49 AM EST

pardon my double post. I meant to say beleg weighs so little in PR compare to AG.

For reference, Beleg has a PR weighting of 0.15 while both AG and NSC have a PR weighting of 0.5.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] December 6 2007 11:50 AM EST

Thanks for that ULord, quite true... and also keep in mind... that is why evasion grants defensive dex and has increased effectiveness in ranged... to combat BG wearing Elb slinging Archers!

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] December 6 2007 11:51 AM EST

Thanks for that ULord, quite true... and also keep in mind... that is why evasion grants defensive dex and has increased effectiveness in ranged... to combat BG wearing Elb slinging Archers!

And yes I can agree with a BG boost to pr weight.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] December 6 2007 12:09 PM EST

Do you guys think that archers need belegs so the can compensate for the evasion?
Because its so horribly overpowered archers need to kill everyone in 4 rounds?
Well that is just wrong thinking, we have 25 rounds to kill each other ranged only uses 4 of them.
So if basically archers are flawed?

Anyway I believe that the damage increase of the belegs is way too high and can be cut down to 2.5% maybe 2%
Since elbs also work in melee and the usefulness of evasion in melee is also cut down.

Increase PR weight? good idea. Why not add damage output to PR?

Ulord[NK] December 6 2007 12:19 PM EST

Henk:

With the current evasion, yes archers need to be able to one shot kill. Since archers have no hope of hitting an evasion minion until third and fourth round of combat and he has to one hit kill his target if there is to be any chance of victory.

Do realize that bows suffer a 60% penalty in dex in melee. That's not gonna hit anybody, especially if the evasion wall is still alive. On top of that, bow hits once every two rounds in melee. The alternative is to get a melee weapon. Without being usd spender, it'll take a long time to build up two large weapons like that. Think about archer strategy like the dispeller single fireball mage. If the fight doesn't finish in ranged, the battle is lost.

Aargh [Closer to the Stars] December 6 2007 1:39 PM EST

Hm I guess it's an old topic... Can't nerf evasion without making archers overpowered, you can't nerf archers without making them useless against evasion.

Of course there are only two solutions. One is not to change anything, the other is to nerf archers and evasion, at the same time.

Since my current character is using both an archer minion and an evasion minion... I'd say don't change anything! =P

Mikel December 6 2007 3:11 PM EST

With the boost to my ST and Dex, I took my BG's off and switched to EG's for the Dex bonus.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] December 6 2007 7:08 PM EST

so archers don't actually need belegs?

th00p December 6 2007 7:10 PM EST

Well, with the best pair in the game you can get a 48% increase to damage...

QBOddBird December 6 2007 7:16 PM EST

"Henk Bres, 7:08 PM EST
so archers don't actually need belegs?"

Duh. It's like throwing dynamite on top of the nuclear bomb.

drudge December 6 2007 7:46 PM EST

i totally support any nerf that keeps me from winning

Ulord[NK] December 6 2007 7:54 PM EST

Mikel's elbow certainly doesn't need any more damage boost :). Archers are more concerned with landing hits nowadays. I think beleg is really necessary for any SoD user though.

TheHatchetman December 6 2007 8:05 PM EST

I'm still wondering...

If i were to blow 26m on a pair of +17 Beleg's and name 'em, stockpile ES, get a 50m nw SoD, and equip a HoC to a ToA Evasion tank, what would the people of CB complain about as broken then? :P

Ulord[NK] December 6 2007 8:09 PM EST

Hatchet:

Freed is way ahead of ya :)

Iluvatar[NK] December 6 2007 8:09 PM EST

I don't think they'd complain about much of anything, to be honest.

TheHatchetman December 6 2007 8:14 PM EST

Apparently, he is... :P way to go Freed! :D and on a related topic to the BGs being used with archery, I've made a thread about that :P
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