Help me think this out... (in General)

TheHatchetman January 19 2008 11:58 PM EST

I currently use a heavy EC enchanter (RoE'd atm, going to have a 2.1m+ ToE) with a low-DX BL tank. The tank is designed to have heavy AC, but i am opting not to use my 364 AC (381 when I name all but my AoAC/CBT) set as I can get better challenge bonuses without it. I also intend to hire on a PL battery at some point.

I'm currently having trouble with large ToA tanks (out-pacing my EC in both ST and DX...), evasion mages (MsK without Archery doesn't work so well...), and RoBF users. The (non-VB) tanks and RoBFs will be easily neutralized when I start using my heavy AC set and ToE. So I'm not too worried about them...

For evasion mages on multi-minion teams, my EC is often enough to nuke their defensive DX, but without Archery, a MsK is easily neutralized, along with any remaining DX advantage with the cth effect. With Archery, countering this with pth is a viable option. I realize heavy evasion minions will never be an option with a heavy tank, but this can really turn the tides against those who spread too thin... I wasn't wanting to use Archery because I felt it would dilut the XP I have to use for my tank too far, especially battling a 22% ST boost and an equal-sized skill penalty. But with the level of damage reduction I am going for, and then getting a PL battery on top of it, he won't need as much HP as I was planning...

My other option that I can see Is switching from EC to AMF (keeping VA). This would allow me to just let mages fry themselves (3m AMF at 1.73m MPR aughta do ^_^). In which case, I rely purely on pth to hit anyone. High evasion RoBFs are still out, but they can't do enough damage. Mages, (especially those with high evasion taking away from their DD and HP) can cook themselves, allowing my tank to use a Axbow (to score extra shots in melee) or an ExBow (to counter VB tanks). Perhaps even a SoD (who doesn't like explosions? ;) ... Of course, focusing all efforts into melee would be viable as well, allowing me to spend more cash on the VB instead of a ranged weapon (bigger pth! :D).

I have chosen the strategy that I have because it will be a tough nut to crack. Heavy damage reduction coupled with regeneration, and a near-invulnerability to archers, SoDs, MM, DM (for the most part), and (my personal favorite!) GA. And it has the weaknesses to my two favorite things in CB. The VB, and Evasion ^_^

What do you guys think?

Colonel Custard January 20 2008 1:47 AM EST

I think it's a good idea to retrain EC to AMF, if you are sure that it would neutralize most mages around your level. Archery would suck up so much xp so fast it's not even funny. I think you should try to put all your NW into your VB, and drop the ranged weapon. After all, some of the biggest melee weapons in the game miss the biggest evasions half the time. With the multiplier in ranged rounds, you may as well forget about even trying ranged, if you're headed to the top.

horseguy001 January 20 2008 2:11 AM EST

I would suggest a huge AMF and a SoD. Do more damage then a mage seeker, no archery needed, and hit all minions on a team. You will laugh at GA damage, so you don't need DM.

I was hitting non evasion tanks with my +100 Exbow back when I had my mini tank and no EC, once a round, so it is possible to do.

Wizard'sFirstRule January 20 2008 5:13 AM EST

I have tried using EC, but tanks just out STR and DX me and my EC don't do enough. AMF=mages drink & fry. and end up frying themselves (one of the local (aka national) fire department slogan).

QBJohnnywas January 20 2008 5:37 AM EST

My tank is not too big, not too small; your EC reduces me down to base damage. But there's the point: I still hit you. My SoD is +101, and in ranged with nuked dex I'm hitting you for double strikes. Meanwhile you don't hit me at all thanks to my evasion. So in my case we stalemate.

So, if I was wearing a ToA, perhaps adding another 300k to my strength I'd be hitting you for possibly large enough amounts to take you down.

So, one thing you could do is boost that EC - obviously, but that's a time issue, patience is a virtue kind of thing.

Admirable though the heavy tank strat is, evasion is always going to be a problem, unless you have absolutely huge PTH. You don't touch my tank at all. Not once, all the way through the battle. My evasion is sitting with bonuses at (123); it's one of the biggest in the game, sitting around number 25 or so, so I'm not surprised that you can't touch it, but that means that there are another 24 people above me that you'll never touch too.

In that particular case switch to AMF from EC; then you'll be mine!

My own personal route would be to jump on the evasion bandwagon, dropping bloodlust and switch to AMF. EC works really well, but if it's not big enough it simply isn't worth it.

TheHatchetman January 20 2008 1:12 PM EST

I'm thinking with AMF, evasion mages will pop, and evasion tanks and RoBFs won't do enough damage without using a VB... so that leaves a lot of evasions off my list, but takes me off of theirs as well... unless they don't mind 2-3 stales before they win ;)

I'm leaning heavily towards AMF now... Can anybody point out something I may be overlooking?

horseguy001 January 20 2008 1:25 PM EST

I know a big AMF would get you off my fightlist. I don't have nearly enough HP on my mage right now XD

Although it would be a stalemate, but I would stop farming you for clan points.

TheHatchetman January 20 2008 10:27 PM EST

how would it be a stalemate? you have over 6m EC (3m effect)?

QBOddBird January 20 2008 10:38 PM EST

Yeah, this is the problem I noted in almost all "EC is overpowered" threads - you have to devote -over- 50% of your total EXP in order to even come close to most tanks.

As for not hitting Evasions, you are facing the problem that every non-ToA tank faces. This isn't due to your EC, it is simply due to the power of Evasion...which, as you know, is all but necessary to stop ranged-round attackers.

Nonetheless, if this strategy is in it for the long haul, I'd probably choose EC over AMF. If you manage to pull a good MPR advantage over your opponents, then the EC will be more than enough to neutralize their damage, and your heavy AC coupled with 2 other minions dividing damage should help you make it into the melee rounds. The ToE/AC combo can defeat mage damage on its own, even without AMF.

Either way, you aren't going to be hitting past big Evasions, and both mages+tanks train those. You simply have to find a way around those. Perhaps choosing to use a RoBF, simply to put that no-miss damage out there, would be the alternative option?

TheHatchetman January 20 2008 10:54 PM EST

"Either way, you aren't going to be hitting past big Evasions, and both mages+tanks train those. You simply have to find a way around those."

I'm aware large evasions are a no go. But I was hoping that my EC could at least counter the defensive DX provided by smaller evasions, giving me DX advantage, and making the pth battle not so uphill. :P

It's not working quite like I had hoped, so I figure AMF aughta make mages useless, and AC/Endurance will make tanks and RoBFs useless, except in the case of VB, and even in that case, their battling some pretty hefty reduction. If ya can't beat em, stale em ;)

"Perhaps choosing to use a RoBF, simply to put that no-miss damage out there, would be the alternative option?"

Nope... I refuse to use, or even consider, a RoBF until the complaints about them stop. I'm hoping to make a DAMN successful team, and I don't want to be used as an example of how something is overpowered, unless that something was put together by me ^_^ Now, I can't say I would mind 'VB is OP', or 'Please nerf heavy tanks' threads a few months from now when I get this strat into full gear...

Besides, when I can get to the point where VBs and double/triple-taps are the only way to do anything better than a stalemate me, wouldn't that be a lot like the RoBF now? (Eithere specialize heavily, sacrificing many potential opponents, or give up all hopes of hurting me :P)

As for horseguy, I'm entirely certain that if i switched now without my equipment (threw it in rentals before looking at the scope of things >.<), it would still be a win on your end. But I'm equally as certain, that once I equip after the switch, the battles go my way ^_^

TheHatchetman January 21 2008 11:19 PM EST

G Beee throwing on a ToA was the last straw for me... retrained to AMF this morning and to FANTASTIC result... Everything is coming together just as I thought it would. And horseguy, I was right. The retrain does not give me a reliable win against you, i lose first then have to doubletap most of the time. But with my ToE, I'm sure the end result will be more favorable to my side of things (along with like 12 others who farm me ^_^). This will allow my score to stabalize well over 2m, where I face the real test. The big boys that think nothing of adding 10m+ nw to get a more reliable win against just one opponent.

This is gonna be SWEET!
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