Me and my Hal (or Hal behaving strangely) (in General)

Tchoob June 19 2008 10:42 AM EDT

Let me introduce you Hal. Hal is my happy friendly familiar. I'm watching over him, and I've noticed that he isn't what I thought he should be. What's wrong with my Hal? Let's take a look at the numbers:

Hal at the start of my observations was level 256065. His Strength and Dexterity should be 50% that value, which is 128032 (rounding down).
First thing I've noticed was how dextrous my Hal is. True, I'm using Elven Gloves +10, and Hal is benefitting from them at 150% rate. That should give him +15% increase in Dexterity resulting in 147237 dex. Right? WRONG! Hal's post fight stats are as follows:
str 128113 (slightly higher than expected, but Hal gained some exp)
dex 221386 (!!!) That's an over 72% increase.

To keep a long story short - 7 out of this 72 is leadership. I know it shouldn't affect Dex, but it does, and it seems to be doing so only via Junction. I've tested it with AoL removed, and the bonus dropped to 65%. Str is not affected. This is the only case of leadership bonus being shown in post-fight stats, no other bonuses can be noticed. Other 65% looks suspiciously like 50 + 15. I don't mind having uber Dex on Hal, but other people may object.

Now other strange thing is what happens when I remove Elven Gloves. Hal Str and Dex both drop to 116509, and I know why it is like that. My Junction drops to 0,91 effect, and that affects Hal. Passing Hal to a non-junctioned minion results in Str and Dex being boosted to over 128k, which is correct.

To sum it up, there are several problems here:
-leadership can affect Hal Dex via Junction
-Junction below 1 affects Hal Str and Dex
-Elven Gloves giving a massive bonus to Hal's Dex
-leadership cannot be noticed in post-fight stats except see above

lostling June 19 2008 10:44 AM EDT

junction gives str and dex boosts of 150%

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 19 2008 10:44 AM EDT

dex and str boosting items have increased effect via junction

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 19 2008 10:47 AM EDT

the issue of stats/level going down when your junction is below 1.0 is still here I guess

Tchoob June 19 2008 10:48 AM EDT

junction gives str and dex boosts of 150%
dex and str boosting items have increased effect via junction

Guys, that's exactly what I meant by 'Hal benefitting from them at 150% rate'. +10 EG give +10% normally, not 15% as I've stated above. I don't know about you, but I can see a difference between a 65% boost and 15% boost.

lostling June 19 2008 10:52 AM EDT

hmmm then i have no idea... OB... whatcha seeing with AOL?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 19 2008 10:56 AM EDT

the bonus is larger than 150%... if you chirp about it enough I'm sure OB will be more than happy to hate you forever...

Colonel Custard June 19 2008 10:56 AM EDT

"junction gives str and dex boosts of 150%
dex and str boosting items have increased effect via junction"

I think I've got it. Those two statements are not a restated clarification of the same thing, they are separate. I.E., merely training Junction gives you a ST/DX boost. On top of that, junctioned items also function at 150%. Therefore, you get 15% boost from EB, and you get 50% boost from having Junction on, yielding the 65% number. So, really, what you should be complaining about is that your ST is not increased by 50%, even though you have Junction trained.

I guess it would make sense that, with Junction boosting you to 150% ST and DX, a 10% boost (based on that bonus, not just on trained stats) would yield 50% more extra DX than it would otherwise. I'd expect that one occurred as a side-effect of the other, and that Jon knows about and intends both, as he listed them in Changelog.

Wow, Jon! A buff to Hal- and JKF-centered teams, while leaving the "casual users" benefitting less... I LOVE IT!

Draugluin June 19 2008 11:06 AM EDT

Seems odd. I don't have this boost to my Fire Familiar. I only have 20 ST and DX.

AdminJonathan June 19 2008 11:07 AM EDT

the leadership business does sound like a bug

> Junction below 1 affects Hal Str and Dex

not a bug, < 1 evasion will allow penalties to cross over too

Tchoob June 19 2008 11:08 AM EDT

The thing is, there's no bonus to Dex if Elven Gloves are unequipped. Or to be precise, the bonus is -9%, because of Junction effect being 0,91.

And about OB hating me - if Jon fixes this, I'm going to back every whining thread about underpowered Hal ;)

Tchoob June 19 2008 11:10 AM EDT

@Jon - the thing is, that minion doesn't have any Str and Dex constraining gear. If you take a look at the numbers, it's all clear. Junction effect is 0,91, and str and dex become 0,91 of what they should be. I don't think that's intended.

Colonel Custard June 19 2008 11:14 AM EDT

Jon replied to the thread and didn't tell me I was dead wrong! I'm-a da wee-nner!

PoisoN June 19 2008 2:47 PM EDT

Get no visible bonus from my BooF for my SF too.

Greyfeld June 19 2008 3:14 PM EDT

Draug, Poison > DD familiars don't get a boost to their melee stats, only the Hal and JKF do.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 19 2008 3:24 PM EDT

Jon has stated that the BoF don't add to level, they add to damage

TheHatchetman June 19 2008 5:42 PM EDT

Gryfeld, my SF has 37 DX when he isn't hit by EC or Axbow :P

Colonel Custard June 19 2008 6:44 PM EDT

I think all familiars get a boost to any stat that gets a boost from a junctioned item. I.E. Hatch is junctioning EBs onto his SF (by my calculations, based on the other data in this thread, they are +25?), and his 20 base DX becomes 37. Draugluin doesn't have any elven gears nor any TGs junctioned onto his FF, so that one does not get the a stat boost. The Junction effect on stats seems to be dependent on junctioned gears, and not simply on the fact that you have Junction trained, with no equipment on.

As for .91 Junction making your stats .91 of what they should be, I think it makes sense that it would work that way. If you don't keep your Junction high enough for your familiar, you're obviously not committed enough to have a familiar-based team :P It kinda works as a secondary imposed MTL, where you can't have your familiar act above a certain level if you don't train the familiar-holding minion to the proper level. You can get a considerable boost from it if you commit to using Junction, but casual use will result in a weakened familiar.

QBOddBird June 19 2008 11:19 PM EDT

If any numbers are needed, I'm happy to equip/unequip/etc in whichever way you like for testing purposes. The size of my stats tends to make calculations easier.

Tchoob June 20 2008 2:25 AM EDT

Ok, looks so right now I'm sure things with bonuses are like this: if you have Junction, and any item that boosts str/dex, that stat is getting an extra +50% boost after the item bonus is added. I've checked that by renting Elven Boots and Helm's Gauntlets, and both str and dex went well over 200k. Sweet. If that's not a bug, I couldn't be more happy.

TrueDevil [AAA] June 20 2008 2:36 AM EDT

Just wondering, and an off topic question, How good is Hal without junctioning items ? I'm really thinking to change my Robf because it's getting useless and have no idea which tattoo to change...

Let's say a lvl 3 mil Hal, how much point to hit does it have ? (I'm talking about the + like in weapons, because Hal is using ELB now or something ?)

Can it hit a (130) evasion or DB + 130 ?

TrueDevil [AAA] June 20 2008 9:09 PM EDT

anyone... ?

QBOddBird June 21 2008 1:24 AM EDT

Haven't a clue, mine is much larger than 3m.

But if it helps any, he's sitting on 206 PTH currently.

TrueDevil [AAA] June 21 2008 2:17 AM EDT

Alright, I think I might just give it a try.

Tchoob June 28 2008 6:27 AM EDT

Ok, another strange Hal behaviour. This time it's not in my favour.
I've noticed that my Hal's Str and Dex are nearly equal, even though my Str bonus is higher.
Ok, here are the numbers:
Hal level equal to MTL: 862069
Raw HAL Str and Dex (level * 50%): 431035
Bonus to Str from items: 22 from +11 AoM, 17 from +17 BoM, 39 from both items, effective bonus 108,5% (50 + 39*1,5)
Bonus to Dex from items: 21 from +21 EB, 14 from +14 EG, 35 from both items, effective bonus 102,5% (50 + 35*1,5)
Total Hal Str: 1221486
Total Hal Dex: 1222182
Now, let's deduct Haste and Giant Strength:
Haste effect: 349337
Giant Strength effect: 348641
Hal Str - Giant Strength: 1221486 - 348641 = 872845
Hal Dex - Haste: 1222182 - 348641 = 872845
Which is equal to raw HAL Str and Dex with Dex bonus from items applied. Now, if I change the AoM from +11 to +10, Str doesn't change - it still stays at the level of Dex. If I unequip AoM, Str drops significantly (don't have the numbers written down, it looks ok, but I'm not sure though).

So, it looks like Str bonus from items is capped at the level of Dex bonus. I don't know if someone can confirm this (OB? Don't know if he has BoM though).

QBOddBird June 28 2008 11:01 AM EDT

Nope, no BoM quite yet, gimme a little time though and I'll help with this one :)

Tchoob June 29 2008 11:39 AM EDT

Hmm, it's strange, but swapping EG from +14 to +5, thus getting Junction below 1 results in Str being properly bigger than Dex. Still, when using the described above gear (be it AoM +10, or +11) the bug is there, and Hal is lacking in strength.

AdminJonathan June 29 2008 11:58 AM EDT

remember, junction doesn't apply item bonuses separately to the familiar, it applies the existing bonus from the minion.

this has two effects:

- you familiar doesn't just get bonuses, he get the effect of (bonuses - penalties)
- if the owner's stats are super low level, you'll see round-off effects

the second is what is happening here -- AoM +10 or +11 both give your minion 27 / 20 st.

lostling June 29 2008 12:07 PM EDT

does that mean if i train STR on my minion i would get more str on my hal due to junction?

QBOddBird June 29 2008 2:19 PM EDT

So it rounds down, then?

Also, that's really really interesting to learn. Thanks, Jonathan! :D

Tchoob June 30 2008 5:24 AM EDT

Wow, now that was something worth knowing! I've trained both Str and Dex of my Junction minion to 500, and it works like a charm.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002Sor">Me and my Hal (or Hal behaving strangely)</a>