NSCs questions (in General)


QBJohnnywas August 13 2008 10:19 AM EDT

Ok, this might seem like a funny question but how exactly do NSCs work?

I know the percentage per + reduction. That I sort of understand. But how does that lead to somebody taking (0) as backlash?

The wiki says this:

"Subtracts 1% from the effect of Antimagic Field per enchantment point cast on the wearer. "

Now if I'm casting a 4 million level AMF and the opponent has +10 NSCs how much should that AMF be reduced?

Should that ever lead to the wearer taking (0) from an AMF?

VivaPinata August 13 2008 10:22 AM EDT

I think it works something along the lines of this:

When this happens, Andrew cast Antimagic Field on Shroom Tamer (0.55).
Then my NSC+10 reduces that effect to (.45). So, if a pair of NSC can reduce the AMF effect down to 0, then sure.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 13 2008 10:38 AM EDT

It's a fixed reduction, not unlike the old RoBF.

I was never sure why Jon did it this way, but I do know it does it's job almost as well as I'd always hoped for. I can fight with a mage in the top five. People who want a sure win against me are forced to heavily invest in AMF instead of just training a fractional amount of experience and then investing in all around damage reduction instead.

I'd see to see them become the mages money sink, but as things are now, I suspect that the wailing and gnashing of teeth that would result would tear us apart.

QBJohnnywas August 13 2008 10:40 AM EDT

Ok, I'm missing how much LA's decay is, but;

I have this: Antimagic Field 4,232,921


I do this: 1 cast Antimagic Field on Omg! (0.85)

This is what happens: Omg! takes damage from his own Decay (0)!

LA also has these: Flame Scorched Noldorin Spellcasters [0] (+16).


Does the ToE protect a decay user from AMF backlash also?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 13 2008 10:46 AM EDT

It does, especially since the HP on that minion is low. However I don't think it should reduce it past the 75% cap on the ToE... unless the ToE was changed

QBsutekh137 August 13 2008 11:03 AM EDT

JW, is that when the backlash target is already down to 1 HP? Backlash will be zero then, because Decay can never kill, nor can its backlash...

QBJohnnywas August 13 2008 12:23 PM EDT

Omg! takes damage from his own Decay (34349)!
Omg!'s Decay hit 3 [69845]


Ah, that's more like what I expected to see!

I took my familiar off and attacked and there you go...no (0) anymore.

I was trying to work it out while I was at work, otherwise I might have realised that I'd already done damage to that minion!!

Thanks!

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 13 2008 1:48 PM EDT

I'd actually prefer it if the NSC were as I originally asked for.

Every point on them would reduce a fixed amount of AMF backlash, not increasing damage at all. Give them a db style upgrade curve and you've got a mage cash sink and no more silly base decay turrets.

QBsutekh137 August 13 2008 1:57 PM EDT

That sounds look a good idea, novice...I agree with you.

What's this, mages saying they should be made to spend more cash and actually asking to lose one of the cheaper elements of the DD arsenal? Wow, we must be losing our minds! *smile*

Cube August 13 2008 6:53 PM EDT

They are pretty cheap as they stand.

If I have 1 mil in DD levels, and they have 1 mil in Amf then it's .50 Amf cast right? But then my NSC +12 or whatever drops them down to .38 essentially lowering their Amf level to..

From the wiki
X was 1

X^(0.7)/2 = .38
X is now 0.675

X is the ratio of Amf to DD, so it busts their Amf down 30% at even levels of DD.

If their Amf is originally .12 then it knocks it to zero that's

X^(0.7)/2 = .12
X is .13 originally, so it busts them down 130k levels, which is about how many levels Altars gloves would give you.

Originally this post was going to be about how I didn't think they were cheap then I did the math, as for making them like DBs eh, just cause Novice has a compulsive need to spend money on non-weapons?

It'd probably be better if NSC just lowered their Antimagic field by a percentage instead of being a fixed number.

Offtopic: I'd kill for +50 NSC.

NIG August 13 2008 6:57 PM EDT

Offtopic: You'd implode yourself with Encumbrance if you equipped those Noldorin Spell Casters.

Which would be better? A base decay turret, or an extra kill slot? (I mean, you could have both, but Guardian Angel makes it one or the other).

QBsutekh137 August 13 2008 6:58 PM EDT

Not with DM.

But then, there's no such thing as a kill slot any more -- well, unless you have a big PL battery, that is.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 13 2008 7:03 PM EDT

*twitch* it's not *twitch* a *double twitch* com-*twitch*-pull-*twitch*-sion *twitch**twitch**twitch**twitch**twitch*

Mikel August 13 2008 8:37 PM EDT

Kinda like the opposite of Evasion,
A little xp in evasion neuters top USD weapons.

Money invested in NSC's neuters tons of XP spent in AMF.

That sounds great, let's just keep on going down the path of Mage Blender.

Personally, I think they are too strong as they are, either their effect needs to come down or AMF needs a boost.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 13 2008 8:52 PM EDT

If people can't over train evasion to beat all tanks, why should you be able to over train AMF and beat all mages? With evasion tanks can actually specialize in hitting and still win, no such guarantee with magic. I've got zero options that will allow me to beat you Mikel, considering I don't even get hit by your RoBF I think your requesting an AMF buff is just slightly more selfish than Ranger's request for a weapon artist. Sure there are other people it will help, but no one more than you.

Mikel August 13 2008 9:50 PM EDT

"If people can't over train evasion to beat all tanks, why should you be able to over train AMF and beat all mages? "

OK... where have you been? People have been over training to prevent ToA Archers and any other tank to keep from hitting them, there no cap on how high they can train it up to, unlike a cap for the weapons.

That's zero damage a tank will do for 30 rounds or less if they get killed off via another means.

Again:
Not so much xp needed for Evasion = Anti-Tank
Tons of xp needed for AMF = Anti-Mage

And now you want to throw money into NSC's (keep your evasion trained) and rule over all Anti-Mages and be Anti-Tank at the same time?

I tell you what, you can leave the NSC's as they are now, just reduce the base damage of the SG.

I thought the idea that has been going on has been to put less emphasis on USD and more on XP.

With that said, NSC's need their turn on the block as well.

AG's are fine, because the tank has his BG's or Tulks that do the same thing.

There isn't any gloves that an Archer tank can switch to and lower GA damage with. If there was such a thing, then DM wouldn't need to be required on an Archer team.

My point is keep things equal.

PS Sut, I don't give a hoot if you don't like Defensive PL/Wall Strats like mine. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, I like them because they are different and much harder to create than a typical DD familiar/junction team with evasion trained on it.

Mikel August 13 2008 9:55 PM EDT

"I think your requesting an AMF buff is just slightly more selfish than Ranger's request for a weapon artist. Sure there are other people it will help, but no one more than you."

I think your request for the change to the NSC's is just as selfish on your part as you think my request is, and there's only one person that it would help more than you, and that's LA.

So if you really want to play that game, then I will too.

But if you want to have a somewhat intelligent discussion, then keep those types of remarks out of it.

Sacredpeanut August 13 2008 10:37 PM EDT

"If people can't over train evasion to beat all tanks, why should you be able to over train AMF and beat all mages? With evasion tanks can actually specialize in hitting and still win, no such guarantee with magic."

I challenge you to find one, just one tank-only-team that can beat a similar PR team that "over trains" evasion.

"I've got zero options that will allow me to beat you"

What do you expect? He's an anti-mage team, you're a mage team, and he has over 500k more MPR and over 1M more PR than you. If I was Mikel, I'd be pretty disappointed if I didn't beat you comfortably.

QBsutekh137 August 13 2008 10:54 PM EDT

Um, Mikel, novice's change would be an ostensible mage _nerf_.

Did you even read his idea? He is saying he doesn't like that NSC's take a flat fraction off the top like they do, allowing folks to slap a big pair on a base Decay enchanter and have them still land decent hits (while never killing themselves due to the nature of Decay).

You wonder why some mage teams stop bothering with solidarity or union here? Look in a mirror for god's sake. novice and I were both agreeing for a change to NSC's that would be a nerf for any mage team that didn't have a veritable cart-load (read -- enough to get NSCs to +20) in cash.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 13 2008 10:56 PM EDT

/me searches hi and low for the evasion he's training on his familiar

My idea for the NSC was actually an attempt at compromise. Sorry if it doesn't do enough in your eyes towards crippling the only item keeping mages a viable option for the top.

My suggestion would have lowered the amount of damage done by SG, but you can't even be bothered to comprehend that.

I don't think I could not point out how frighteningly silly the idea of AMF buff coming form you is. You start off with completely exaggerating "A little xp in evasion neuters top USD weapons" and finish off with statements that are not only wrong, but silly

"Not so much xp needed for Evasion = Anti-Tank
Tons of xp needed for AMF = Anti-Mage"

You might as well just repeat the core of your argument over and over;
[mage bad, hurt $USD fueled ego, want dominance back to sooth machismo]

Balance isn't going to be achieved by pointing fingers. I offered an idea and you came in with an agenda and politicalese spin.

QBsutekh137 August 13 2008 10:58 PM EDT

Sorry, my reading is slow too, just saw your PS... I never said my team was interesting. I just asked for ONE THING to change with PL, the ability to hide in death. (you were just an example, it's OK, you can stop bearing the weight of the Universal Center on your shoulders, dude. Relax.)

The dislike of resurrection and hiding in death is something that _every_ _single_ _person_ I have ever seen talk knowledgably about agreed that was lame about things like PL and the TSA.

So you can get off the high horse, you look ridiculous up there.

Wizard'sFirstRule August 13 2008 10:58 PM EDT

maybe a slight change so that the curve for AMF stays linear until like .6 and goes up sharply as is now. That would account for the average of 12% reduction that most NSC give. (equal amount of DD and AMF still give .5 AMF, but just don't make the curve that steep yet.)

Mikel August 13 2008 11:33 PM EDT

Nov,
Your change is lowering the effect initially (and it would only effect Decay users, but be awesome for the other DD's), but then you want to turn around and make the upgrade curve on them similar to DB's. Which would allow you to get them up higher than they currently can go before they get too expensive as they currently are.

"The dislike of resurrection and hiding in death..."

My team doesn't die then resurrect at all. Wasn't that bug already fixed a while back? PL itself serves its' purpose of being similar to an AS being cast on your team. Only difference is that it's not effected by DM and you have to have enough HP trained on that PL minion to handle multiple blows/spells.

Mikel August 13 2008 11:46 PM EDT

"My suggestion would have lowered the amount of damage done by SG, but you can't even be bothered to comprehend that. "

How is it going to lower the amount of damage done by SG? Did you add an armor penalty that I didn't see?

The only thing you're change is suggesting is that it will lower AMF backlash. SG packs quite a punch as it is, and therefore the AMF Backlash on it is hefty as well, so you want to have the ability to lower your AMF backlash, making SG a better choice with a big set of pumped NSC's.

And then we are no better off than where we were before evasion by allowing USD spenders to "own all" again.

QBsutekh137 August 13 2008 11:56 PM EDT

Mikel, PL is a "phantom link" by definition. That means it doesn't deflect the damage, it absorbs (at lesser cost) what the target already has.

So, yeah, your folks are resurrecting every time I hit them for more than 20 HP (not hard to do). They die, the PL battery absorbs everything, and the 20-HP minions are back to 20.

Look, this is _really_ simple. If Jonathan posts that PL IS in fact a "phantom force field", meaning the damage never reaches the target, then it isn't resurrection. True. But that is not now, nor has it ever been, presented as such.

I'll leave you with this, the actual description of PL from the training page:

"Allows Minion to absorb damage dealt to a companion at reduced rate; interferes with life-drain attacks."

Dealt. Meaning the damage lands and the PL battery THEN absorbs it.

And you are telling me that isn't resurrection? Come on.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 14 2008 12:07 AM EDT

Did you miss the part where the NSC wouldn't actually change the effect of AMF on damage Mikel?

Mikel August 14 2008 12:19 AM EDT

""Allows Minion to absorb damage dealt to a companion at reduced rate; interferes with life-drain attacks."

Dealt. Meaning the damage lands and the PL battery THEN absorbs it. "

I think it's more on the way we see how it works that is complicating this.

Here's how I see it.

It lands on a specific minion because it has to take into account each minion's AC/Damage Reduction first, then if he PL Minion doesn't have enough HP to absorb the FULL blow, then it will absorb as much as it can down to 0-1 hp (can't remember for sure that part), and what it can't absorb is dealt to that receiving minion. If the PL minion can absorb the full blow then the receiving minion takes NO damage.

So if it is taking NO damage, then how can it die and resurrect?

I hope that helps.

QBsutekh137 August 14 2008 12:37 AM EDT

Sure, you're interpretation is how it ends up. But as we see with several other game elements, like VA, AMF backlash, and TSA, the damage ALWAYS hits and THEN comes off. I can see it your way, but I still call it resurrection. The damage should kill your guys. I have no problem with PL being a healing spell... If you invest in the HP (or AS) and I can't even get through that, then of course I have no problem with PL pulling it all back. I've dealt with that kind of damage reduction (PL/ToE/TSA/VA) for as long as I can remember, and I know that's how the game is played.

But I can't magically, and neither can a big AS team, (ask NWO and Dix about me) keep my 20-hp folks alive against spreadfire, so neither should you. There is no way to break up or dispel PL. So all I am asking for is that it doesn't do more than any other spell -- keep everyone alive regardless of what anyone does.

Mikel August 14 2008 1:36 AM EDT

"Did you miss the part where the NSC wouldn't actually change the effect of AMF on damage Mikel?"

This is the line that I'm referring to.

"Every point on them would reduce a fixed amount of AMF backlash, not increasing damage at all. "

by reducing the AMF backlash by a fixed amount for each +, you are reducing the backlash damage that a mage takes for casting the DD, and the AMF reduction is full strength vs the DD (instead of reduced like it is now).

This is thinking further ahead and this is what I see: you are saying is that you want the AMF Backlash lowered, and the ability to pump the NSC's up on the same curve at DB's. So what will a set of +100's AMF Backlash look like? 0?

Tell me if I'm not seeing it the same way you have described it.

Sut,
Yes PL can't be dispelled, but then again, I can't train up any other skill on the minion either can I? So I am losing out on Steel Skin and Evasion. Which made it a fairly tough decision. I could've trained up Evasion instead, then I wouldn't need so much HP on my main minion and could have made up the AMF on him by training some HP on my other minions to help them live a couple of rounds vs Spread Damage.

I'm going to ignore this part cause it sounds petty.
"But I can't magically, and neither can a big AS team, (ask NWO and Dix about me) keep my 20-hp folks alive against spreadfire, so neither should you."

My team stays alive long enough for my AMF backlash to kill the mage hitting me, then once they are done hitting me, I start regenerating and my RoBF also kicks in for Melee (which can take a while), and while that is happening, my Main minion is healing himself back up, meaning that if you hit me once, and try to double tap me, I'm almost always fully healed back up.

I'm done talking for tonight. sleepy time.

lostling August 14 2008 2:42 AM EDT

i believe he means that every + gives a fixed reduction from AMF... if that was the case why would not i use a +100 NSC on a small mage? oh wait thats the way DB are now... oh wait another min that was corrected by enc :) NSC should be in spellcheck

Sacredpeanut August 14 2008 4:23 AM EDT

It wouldn't work with a DB like curve, it would need to be linear.

QBOddBird August 14 2008 4:28 AM EDT

Indeed, with a curve they'd quickly fall out of use as MPR increased

lostling August 14 2008 4:51 AM EDT

oh dear so we will be seeing +300 NSC then? :) oh wait there are +300 DB.... so +600 NSC?

Sacredpeanut August 14 2008 5:26 AM EDT

Yep, since DD is linear, AMF backlash increases in a linear fashion so the NSC's would require a constant upgrade cost to keep up with AMF backlash.

Not a big fan of the idea personally, it doesn't mesh with the way item PR is calculated (added PR from the NSC's would soon become obscene). Some sort of fudge factor would need to be applied to the NSC's PR weighting so that added PR per plus decreases as NSC size increases.

QBsutekh137 August 14 2008 10:47 AM EDT

My comment wasn't based on pettiness, it was based on the desire for things to have a foil. A suitably large PL/HP/TSA battery has no foil. The whole "I burn that train slot" has never been accepted as a foil...we all need to train stuff. Heck, I guess I could say quit whining about mages, as we have to train our DD and so weapons are useless to us!

That's just choice, not balance. I am not sure where you are finding pettiness in there. I made very clear that I have no problem with PL draining off every bit of damage for minions that are _still alive_. That means if you trained HP or used AS, I wouldn't consider the other minions staying alive to be a problem at all. But as it is now, it is something for nothing because you don't need to invest anything in your supporting cast. I know what that's like, I didn't invest anything in my supporting cast either, and that's why they die (and should die, I would never expect them to stay alive with only 20 native HP).

I apologize if my tone comes off as petty -- that is probably frustration coming through. I don't feel as if I am asking for much, yet some folks are accusing me of whining and acting like the world will crumble if this one dynamic of PL gets tweaked. I don't understand that...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 14 2008 10:54 AM EDT

Lets see if I can clarify.

For every plus on the boots (which should have an increasing curve, maybe not as shallow as DB, I'm not sure) you'd prevent say 10000 points of amf backlash.

The problem with AMF backlash is that it's impossible to keep a mage alive for 30 rounds against it. There are only two methods to even curb it's insatiable hunger (ToE, TSA). AMF is like seeker arrows with additional defensive capabilities. For equal XP expenditure, Mikel gets a direct to my familiar damage spell that always hits and does nearly a million points a round. In addition it lowers my damage.
What I'm asking for is to make AMF as an offense counterable, you can leave it's defensive capabilities intact but it needs to not be a sure win spell.

Mikel August 14 2008 3:01 PM EDT

"A suitably large PL/HP/TSA battery has no foil."

Sure it does, you have to invest heavily in damage output, like SG
(I would say Elb, but ranged has been so nerfed that it's not anywhere near as good as it used to be).

If my team didn't have AMF, it would toast against Mages.
Again we don't see eye to eye on how PL works, it's nothing more than an HP Shield for the other minions and HP comes off of it first, instead of from the minion that gets "hit".

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 14 2008 5:52 PM EDT

How heavily? After 9.3m DD (AoF boosted) gets hit with your AMF the typical hit is about 1.5m you regen a third of that a round. Add to that the AMF return and GA (at least GA can be countered with DM, no such luck for AMF) and a mage might as well stick his finger in a light socket. I can't imagine FB or MM having an easier time, and I know that CoC doesn't work against you.

I've got three times the total team HP you've got, 8.6m on my familiar alone, so lets not get all uppity about your investments in HP and PL.

AMF and PL should not be an effective offense against mages.

Attributes and special abilities should have an effective counter,
that's one of the core ideas that make CB. The current methods to deal with PL aren't enough, simply because of the nature of the skill,
It needs changing.

Mikel August 14 2008 6:35 PM EDT

"AMF and PL should not be an effective offense against mages. "

Uhm PL works exactly the same vs Tanks as it does for Mages.

Wow, The mechanics for PL and AMF have been relatively unchanged in the game longer than evasion has even been in it, and they were never a problem before?

So now, all of a sudden it is?

Sure I know Sut has never like PL, but at the same time, I have never liked how Evasion works in it's current form, and have rallied and rallied against it until I finally gave up.

I am weak vs ToA Tanks, Feel more than free to convert over to a Tank and beat me like Soul Collector does.

What do you want? The ability to kill me in one shot with your 9.3 mil level SG? LA's is bigger and does 2mil + per hit on me. But thanks for bringing this up again, vs my .43 AMF you still manage to do that much damage? That's more than my ToA archer could do in one hit in Ranged after the last round of ranged damage reductions.

Tune in tomorrow while we discuss how overpowered the RoBF is.

Mikel August 14 2008 6:44 PM EDT

Oh yes and I forgot to mention that the minion you deal 1.5 mil damage to is also wearing a +50 Mage Shield and you still dish out that much damage. I'd hate to see how much you could do if I took that off and nuked my AMF's.

Maybe I will some Sunday so we can see just exactly how overpowered the SG really is.

Cube August 14 2008 6:53 PM EDT

Sut, arguing against the physical sense of PL doesn't make sense.

If you want an AMF counter, switch to a tank. Mages cost no money so you have no reason to complain.

Mikel August 14 2008 7:01 PM EDT

"If you want an AMF counter, switch to a tank."

Or RoBF, it is also unaffected by AMF.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 14 2008 7:16 PM EDT

I'm not complaining about the damage I do, I'm pointing out that you're able to defend against my SG + NSC + more HP than almost any other minion in game without breaking a sweat. I'm using things that are supposed to be more overpowered than Todd and you're not even hurt.

Either something is wrong, or things are pretty close to being balanced.

My complaint is about the use of AMF as an offensive spell, it has NO counter. Getting a larger familiar won't do it (I'll be taking even more in AMF return then), I can't imagine having more HP, and none the of other DD spells is any better in the long run (mostly because of the 10% reduction from PL, otherwise CoC would be slightly better than SG against you).

Cube August 14 2008 7:22 PM EDT

You don't even have a ToE on. No way to counter Amf? Yeah right.

QBJohnnywas August 14 2008 7:25 PM EDT

Familiar tattoo can't use a ToE to reduce AMF backlash.

Cube August 14 2008 7:30 PM EDT

So obviously don't use a familiar if you want the ToE protection. Don't try and tell me that there's no other counter.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 14 2008 7:45 PM EDT

The ToE is certainly one of the two options I mentioned already, however it isn't even enough when it's combined with the TSA (see LA) and massive HP. He still gets taken out because of the power of AMF when combined with regen. Never ending pool of HP + AMF = mage death pure and simple. I'm seeing more and more how this is both similar and
different from tanks and evasion. The difference is that a tank can specialize in being able to hit, and dd users can't (yet) specialize in surviving AMF return.

Mikel August 14 2008 7:52 PM EDT

King of Pain defeated FTW (/FTW) after 30 rounds of combat.

Looks like he's pushing me to the edge, and fyi, he kills my Main minion, but my main minion survives long enough for me to kill his too.

And this is with my AMF/Mage Shield AC reductions.

So what were you saying about not having the ability to beat me with SG and no ToE? It can be done, you just aren't there yet, so why go nerfing everything under the sun just so you can get there faster?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 14 2008 8:19 PM EDT

You know what, I think I've come to the only sane conclusion there is.

Arguing about balance contributes nothing to CB, and is about as much fun as tripping old people outside a hospital ("remission? I'll show you remission!"). Sure it's dramatic, and even cuts through the boredom for a while... but the stench gets to you eventually and I'm tired of vomiting in the forums.

I think that outside of posting raw data, I'm done.

(and just to prove I'm a hypocrite, I'll point out that I'd need to have around 20 million HP on my familiar to beat you Mikel)

Cube August 14 2008 9:12 PM EDT

1. ToE doesn't help versus AMF when it's not on the mage.
2. Evasion specialized teams don't even have to be above your mpr to beat tanks consistently.

iBananco [Blue Army] August 14 2008 9:23 PM EDT

"The difference is that a tank can specialize in being able to hit, and dd users can't (yet) specialize in surviving AMF return."
Sure you can! Just like tanks can hit by training all of their ST into DX and hitting for no damage at all, you can survive AMF by untraining all but 1K of your DD! Then your AMF backlash will be nice and manageable. I guarantee that you won't be killed by it.

superior me August 14 2008 10:12 PM EDT

how can a mage complain about a strat being unfair because it is designed to beat you, every tried being a tank any strat with evasion is specialized against us you complain about amf PL users im sure this is a few more evasion users than PL users thats for sure so before you get on your high horse you have to understand mages have got it easy, atleast you know you'll hit on evasion i almost never hit

mikel, i like your strat and i hope more people follow suit might bring a new tier of tanks into the game instead of this mageblender stuff

QBsutekh137 August 14 2008 10:42 PM EDT

superior, unless by "new tier of tanks" you mean "passive damage and an RoBF", your post is just about the silliest thing I've seen in quite some time. Rah rah!

Care to elaborate on this "new tier of tanks" you are referring to? King of Pain is not a tank team. Who are you referring to?

And Cubic, you're right. Let's just stop arguing against the sense of anything. I, for one, will be sure to watch when you come out against anything. Hm, wait, generally you don't. You just sit on the side and take pot shots at other folks who DO try to discuss what they like or don't like about things, sometimes even something something previously undiscussed -- the SAVAGES! Well, more power to you! You truly have a vision and you've nailed it down!

Sacredpeanut August 14 2008 11:34 PM EDT

"Lets see if I can clarify.

For every plus on the boots (which should have an increasing curve, maybe not as shallow as DB, I'm not sure) you'd prevent say 10000 points of amf backlash."

Again, increasing upgrade costs wouldn't work, it would need to be a constant upgrade cost to be balanced across the board.

superior me August 15 2008 12:18 AM EDT

i never said king of pain is a tank team at all i said i liked his strat so i dont know how you got the impression i thought he was a tank

and if more people used a strat like his pl/amf it would influence more tanks into cb .... them being, the new(well more reborn) tier of tanks because large ToA archer teams have an advantage against such setups making them more viable as we might be able to build a half decent list, also it would stop mages having almost complete control of cb

did i clarify myself enough for you?

QBsutekh137 August 15 2008 12:40 AM EDT

No. Please directly clarify this sentence:

"mikel, i like your strat and i hope more people follow suit might bring a new tier of tanks into the game instead of this mageblender stuff"

Not for me, for clarity. You directly say that if more people follow suit to his strat, might bring more tanks in.

What should anyone think that means? Why would a good PL battery lend it self better to tanks? A mage could use it just as easily. That's why I was asking for change in its dynamics -- because it is pure defense, with no foils.

You are correct, you didn't say he was a tank. I was extrapolating. But my extrapolation made sense.

iBananco [Blue Army] August 15 2008 12:48 AM EDT

He means that he wants more people to go anti-mage.

QBsutekh137 August 15 2008 1:02 AM EDT

Anti-mage != tank, and tank is what was said.

I don't even know why this is a discussion point, I was just going by what someone they themself stated clearly. It's not a big deal. However, it would seem other folks get to say whatever they want, but if a mage opens their mouth, then it's unacceptable whining. I love the smell of a good double-standard in the morning! Especially considering that my greatest success in CB ever was primarily as a tank team! Huzzah!

Cube August 15 2008 1:02 AM EDT

I'm sorry I find arguing how one feels about balance futile. That's why I stick to the facts, and correct it when people make errors. If you want me to state what I think needs to be changed then sure.

Evasion curve lowered, nothing fancy, and not a lot either maybe to 75% of it's original state, this would effect defensive dex and the level of the effect.
Exbows more dependent on strength of the attacker, if the attacker has no strength then the drain should be small.
NSC I'd leave alone for now, maybe change later to a percentage based. (Probably me being selfish considering I instaed to +15 ones just a few hours ago).

Criticize away.

Cube August 15 2008 1:09 AM EDT

And I think superior me is saying that he likes how Mikel is using a tank vulnerable strategy, because if more of those exist, then tanks are still viable.

superior me August 15 2008 1:17 AM EDT

cubic nailed it on the head =)

also if more people have an advantage over mages it might influence mages to switch to tank setups <--- this is where we get the new wave of tanks from Sut

i see how you got the impression you thought i was saying mikel was a tank, but use common sense im pretty sure most people know an RoBF isnt a tank setup so you should have picked up on the fact i would have too.

lostling August 15 2008 1:32 AM EDT

oh i just love dying 1 round a minion... :)

superior me August 15 2008 1:44 AM EDT

not as much as i love killing you 1 minion a round =)

Cube August 15 2008 3:58 AM EDT

not as much as I love popping off one minion every two rounds of your anti mage team with a mage team

Speaking of which, I forgot to add it to the list of what I'd change, but I'd either get rid of SG, make the Armor boost effect the Amf return, get rid of the bonus damage v armor, or I'd simply lower the damage.

Cube August 15 2008 12:33 PM EDT

"i see how you got the impression you thought i was saying mikel was a tank, but use common sense im pretty sure most people know an RoBF isnt a tank setup so you should have picked up on the fact i would have too."

No reason to be so critical over a simple misunderstanding.

superior me August 15 2008 9:15 PM EDT

lol he seem to be critical when it comes to what i type, im sure hes more than able to handle it when the shoes on the other foot.

.... im even more sure he can speak for himself if need be, without you doing to for him =)

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] August 16 2008 5:22 AM EDT

Please speak English... Rewrite your sentences, with proper punctuation and format, then maybe we can talk ^_^ Until then... hope that Bast does not see anything you have written...

Kong Ming August 16 2008 5:26 AM EDT

You can junction the effects of an NSC to a familiar? If so, a high nw one doesn't matter since encumbrance does not transfer to the familiar.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] August 16 2008 5:30 AM EDT

True you could Kong_Ming... but the largest in the game currently is charge arm [0] (+18) worth $47,792,312 owned by QBnovice (Conundrum) and anything bigger would be counter productive.... somewhere in the ball park of 45 mil for the next point... which would be better served by placing the cbd into db's instead.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 16 2008 6:10 AM EDT

the dbs don't really change my fight list much
I occasionally stalemate edyit without them

Mikel August 16 2008 9:55 AM EDT

With the lack of Top Tier Tanks, it's not small wonder that you have to really worry about them. Same as my strat, I don't really worry too much about top tier tanks (which is why it is almost entirely anti-mage, can't evade a spell).

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 16 2008 12:43 PM EDT

has more to do with who is in my clan...
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