We need a serious boost for forge efficiency (in General)


Sickone December 25 2008 2:37 PM EST

First off, I really don't get it why some items are unforgeable. If anything, it would make a lot more sense to have items that are ONLY forgeable, and the blacksmith couldn't do it.

Second, when you can make more money fighting than NW you can add to a piece of gear through forging, there's really no point in forging at all... just fight and use the cash to blacksmith your gear.

Third, even if by some miracle even the best could barely make as much cash fighting as they could make forging (say almost nobody could fight with positive challenge bonus, most people fighting with a nasty negative one), since forging grants no XP at all, you'd STILL be better off fighting than forging.


All in all, forging needs a serious boost, I think anybody can agree on that. Problem is, how exactly is that supposed to be done, if at all, and would it be worth the effort or not ?

A simple ramp up in forging effectiveness (even up to x2 of current) would certainly mean forging makes sense, even up to the degree where some of the top characters might actually consider doing it (might, not will). A very simple change, so effort would be minimal - but would it break anything ? Or would it be just fine ?
If not that, what else ? And how complicated would it be to code ? And, like I said, would that complicated way be worth implementing over the simpler ones ?

Feel free to debate :)
Not that we will reach a consensus, but at least we can discuss :p

AdminTal Destra [Forge Of Norn] December 25 2008 2:42 PM EST

should be fairly easy to code considering its the same base efficiency all around.

i agree entirely that forging needs a boost to the effectiveness

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] December 25 2008 3:17 PM EST

If you forge your own gear, you make quite a bit more NW gain then if you fought for a day.

three4thsforsaken December 25 2008 3:22 PM EST

I would vote for a smaller boost in efficiency and killing the forging fees.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] December 25 2008 3:23 PM EST

"A simple ramp up in forging effectiveness (even up to x2 of current)"
Nope

"Increase effectiveness"
Yes! so needed! Its so not worth while to forge! 500k nw a day, but only with 1.2 efficiency!

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] December 25 2008 3:26 PM EST

Yah, I agree with Henk. If the efficiency of forging got doubled, I'd never fight. I'd just forge all day and add 1M to my armor and weapons every day.

lel December 25 2008 3:44 PM EST

If I had a 700k MPR character with 100% challenge bonus, I would make more fighting than forgin and that's without leveling a tattoo.

three4thsforsaken December 25 2008 3:45 PM EST

I take my vote back, that could end up badly. Efficiency should increase, keep the forging fee.

Reignmaker [Battle Royale] December 25 2008 4:37 PM EST

That's because 700k is a really low level to be forging at. When you're higher MPR the more effective it is to forge. And no matter how much you fight at 700k MPR, even with the NUB, you're probably not going to be making 500k CBD everyday.

lel December 25 2008 5:02 PM EST

I would make more fighting at 700k MPR than anyone could with forging.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] December 25 2008 5:06 PM EST

Throughout CB2's history, we've thought of everything to help us forgers to no avail, i honestly have given up cuz Jon really does not care for forgers, and he has said this a few times.

Sickone December 25 2008 9:27 PM EST


"Yes! so needed! Its so not worth while to forge! 500k nw a day, but only with 1.2 efficiency!"

I don't regard 420k NW a day at aprox x1 forge effectiveness as anything too exhuberant.
Also, if you disenchant (and quite a lot of disenchantable items have a lower forge efficiency as far as I know, not all, but enough of those you'd want upgraded fast in the first place, those with stat-boosting effects) you only get 50% of that NW back.
And let's not forget, you are quite severely restricted by encumbrance too (the only exceptions being enchanters and junctioned familiars, and the latter could be fixed too).



"That's because 700k is a really low level to be forging at. When you're higher MPR the more effective it is to forge. And no matter how much you fight at 700k MPR, even with the NUB, you're probably not going to be making 500k CBD everyday. "

Actually, you might be pretty surprised if you tried it.
Heck, me, now, fighting with negligible CB most of the time (even some negative CB targets on my fight list, and no clan bonus either), and I'm still pulling nearly 300k on a good day.
Lostling certainly had that down to an art on his character (which was NOT a N*B character). Just ask him, how much money WAS he pulling on a daily basis ? You might find it was pretty close to half a mil.
A NUB in a good clan could probably break over 1 mil per day without much effort if he stayed in mid-range MPR intentionally, like Lostling used to.

QBsutekh137 December 25 2008 9:49 PM EST

I would like to see a greater disparity between large-MPR forging and small-MPR forging. I realize it is based on BA cost, but come on. Let a veteran make that tough choice of NW vs. experience and really mean it.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] December 25 2008 10:38 PM EST

Speaking of NUBs I made over 1M dollars a day when I was a NUB.

three4thsforsaken December 25 2008 11:09 PM EST

I did some small forging test a while ago, the difference between large MPr and smaller mpr isn't that much

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] December 26 2008 1:01 AM EST

Yah 3/4s is right, I noticed a very insignificant difference from when I was around 1.5MPR and 2.8MPR.

PearsonTritonRaveshaw December 26 2008 1:07 AM EST

Agreed. Forging is useless in its current form.

[RX3]Cotillion December 26 2008 1:38 AM EST

Lochnivar April 25 2007 5:02 AM EDT
Re: Thread subject.

It just occured to me that the formula 274.6*(MPR^0.169) is the answer to the question originally posed.

The result gives you the baseline NW increase per 10min for any given MPR character when forging.

For a couple of examples:
a 1mil MPR char is a 48% better forger than a 100k MPR char
a 2mil MPR char is only 12.4% better than a 1mil MPR char
a 2mil char is in fact only 26.4% better than 500k MPR


Ripped from this thread.

I wonder if anyone has found a better formula.

Sickone December 26 2008 2:38 AM EST

When the top forger, a 3 mil MPR char averages 500k NW increase per day over a month (out of which you have to take out BS fees), but a NUB can easily get over 1 mil per day cash for a good while shortly after he starts playing... not fine.
Actually, scratch that, make it "very, very wrong".

Like sutekh said : "let a veteran make that tough choice of NW vs. experience and really mean it"
Right now, it's not much of a choice at all... it's more of "I'm too bored to fight so I'll just forge for a while even if it's not all that good".

{cb1}Linguala December 26 2008 3:56 AM EST

If the formula you found is somewhat accurate, RX3, all it would take is 2 changes to it to give the bigger chars a higher revenue.

With the current formula: 274.6*(MPR^0.169)
3m char is 178% more effective than 100k

With the next formula: 158.0*(MPR^0.217)
3m = 209% more effective than 100k

In both cases, 100k MPR forgers will forge as much while the 3m forgers will forge significantly more.

For reference:

current 100k: 1921.77
"new" 100k : 1921.57

current formula 3m MPR: 3414.55
"new" formula 3m MPR : 4019.69

three4thsforsaken December 26 2008 4:10 AM EST

wait if forging efficiency is about the same, wouldn't 100k MPR be able to forge much more with BA regen. Is there any proof that BA regen affects BA regen?

three4thsforsaken December 26 2008 4:10 AM EST

I mean is there any proof that BA regen affects forging efficiency proportionally?

Sickone December 26 2008 4:36 AM EST

Doesn't BA cost also shift dramatically on BA regeneration rate change ? That would easily compensate...

[RX3]Cotillion December 26 2008 10:20 AM EST

{cb1}Linguala 3:56 AM EST
If the formula you found is somewhat accurate, RX3

Lochnivar found the formula. That was back in x/10. I don't know if that makes a difference now. Just thought I'd bring it up in case it may be useful.

Wasp [Demon Forging] December 26 2008 10:48 AM EST

Sorry to burst the bubble here. Jon won't be changing anything to do with forging. He has stated before it was implemented for someones own use rather then the sole purpose of making profit.

Either way jons idea of forging is flawed. How can you possibly forge your own gear when you are running an n*b?? If you are at the top you can't afford to forge. So only the no-hopers that are making up numbers in the middle can afford to forge. What's the point?

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] December 26 2008 11:00 AM EST

The only thing i like about forging is there is no wait throughout spending BA, as in fighting where you fight through your list then wait for the comatose to heal up before you fight again. Forging, you just go all the way through, but those cycles that are under 20 BA per are just as annoying as waiting for comatose players, haha.

Sickone December 26 2008 10:28 PM EST

"He has stated before it was implemented for someones own use rather then the sole purpose of making profit."

Well, sadly, it doesn't make much sense, not even for self-use... fighting is much better overall.

[RX3]Cotillion December 27 2008 12:01 AM EST

Why not just copy the way fighting works?

Just remove the minimal effect MPR has on forging efficiency and have forgers create a 'forger' character and compete against each other with Virtual NW forged. Add a certain amount of bonuses/perks for being in the different x/20 rates.

When people create new 'forger' characters, instead of giving them an insane N*B like bonus to NW added, just make a Virtual NW Added stat, and keep the actual real NW the same. That way people can catch up, and not have an insane/unfair bonus to forging.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 27 2008 8:36 AM EST

"Well, sadly, it doesn't make much sense, not even for self-use... fighting is much better overall."

i also seem to remember him stating specifically that he never meant for forging to be an alternative play style to fighting.

Sickone December 27 2008 10:03 AM EST

Then what's the point of forging, an intentional trap for the mathematically challenged ? :)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 27 2008 10:15 AM EST

when forging was originally added, the damage mod on weapons was non-linear. i think forging was a way to raise the ceiling on the amount reasonably possible for upgrades. on the really huge weapons that we had in the original cb, it would get to a point where if they were improved, it was pretty much solely by forging.

the to-hit mod is still the same way and if it helped to keep bumping it forging would still be crucial for that reason. it would seem to me that forging has just become superfluous due to game mechanics modifications.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] December 27 2008 4:29 PM EST

[RX3]Cotillion 12:01 AM EST
"Why not just copy the way fighting works?

Just remove the minimal effect MPR has on forging efficiency and have forgers create a 'forger' character and compete against each other with Virtual NW forged. Add a certain amount of bonuses/perks for being in the different x/20 rates.

When people create new 'forger' characters, instead of giving them an insane N*B like bonus to NW added, just make a Virtual NW Added stat, and keep the actual real NW the same. That way people can catch up, and not have an insane/unfair bonus to forging."

I suggested this and got flamed hardcore a while back. I insisted we allow players to create a fighter or a forger as their "New" character. Obviously this has not been added.
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