Bug (Major): VB and ES aren't really vorpal [fixed] (in Changelog)


{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- April 5 2010 1:05 PM EDT

Seems off to me, but I don't pretend to be a math guru. So I'll let you guys decide / figure it out.

Using Weapon: A Vorpal Blade [67x6076] (+147) 92,768,072

Against FTW's Minion "Alive"
Armor: 390
Omg! cast Steel Skin on all friendly Minions (354120) (SS = 100% effectiveness would be SS @ 500,000. (4m HP/8))
Wall of Denial grazed Alive [96855]
Wall of Denial grazed Alive [91311]
Wall of Denial scratched Alive [89092]
Wall of Denial grazed Alive [54213]
Wall of Denial grazed Alive [108953]
Wall of Denial sliced into Alive [75276]
Wall of Denial gashed Alive [70062]
Wall of Denial carved into Alive [65228]
Wall of Denial scratched Alive [62622]
Wall of Denial scratched Alive [101399]

Average damage with 10 hits: 81,501


Wall of Denial scratched Melkor 'Master of the Fates' [250580]
Wall of Denial scratched Melkor 'Master of the Fates' [286758]
Wall of Denial grazed Melkor 'Master of the Fates' [318819]
Wall of Denial clove Melkor 'Master of the Fates' [271590]
Wall of Denial sliced into Melkor 'Master of the Fates' [223185]
Wall of Denial's vorpal blade went snicker-snack! [317928]
Wall of Denial's vorpal blade went snicker-snack! [206040]
Wall of Denial's vorpal blade went snicker-snack! [251041]
Wall of Denial scratched Melkor 'Master of the Fates' [211955]
Wall of Denial scratched Melkor 'Master of the Fates' [213579]

Average damage with 10 hits: 255,147

Even if SS was at 100% effect (+ .21% reduction for each point of AC) the damage seems far too low. "Melkor" is Shade's EF with a total AC of:

Summary:
Against FTW:
Total effective AC: 390/2=195
Reduction: 40.95% (This is calculating SS @ 100% (which it is not))
Average Damage: 81,501

Against Valaquenta:
Total effective AC: 0
Reduction: 0%
Average Damage: 255,147

So you can assume that against a Target with zero AC like Valaquenta (no reduction) that the weapon is doing about 255,000 average damage.

Against FTW, (reduction of 41% (Which is really too high, the real reduction would be somewhere between 35-40% but I'm too lazy to figure out the SS math and I don't understand the SS formula to it's full extent)) the weapon is doing 81,000 average damage.

If 255,000 is the normal damage, adding a reduction of 41%, it should still be doing around 150,000 damage a hit, which as you can see is almost double of what it's currently doing against FTW. (A 41% reduction (104,550) off of the 255k).

Thoughts?

If 10 hits isn't enough for a real average, I'll gladly make it 100, but it will take me some time to record.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- April 5 2010 1:30 PM EDT

Alternatively Using: A Mace of Disruption [75x2897] (+40) 26,069,685

A MoD is subject to 65% reduction from his 390 AC. (390x.167) plus his SS, so somewhere between 65% and 82%

A VB is subject to only 32% reduction from his 195 AC. (195x.167) plus his SS, so somewhere between 32.5% and 41%.

Are we seeing that reflected in actual damage?? An average damage of 61,802 against Alive, compared to an average damage of 396,317 against the EF... An 80% reduction against the damage done to the zero ac EF is 79,264. Which is almost 35% more damage than the MoD is currently doing against Alive, which leads me to believe something is off here.

Wall of Denial bruised Alive [67028]
Wall of Denial bruised Alive [71251]
Wall of Denial bruised Alive [83564]
Wall of Denial bruised Alive [59509]
Wall of Denial bruised Alive [66352]
Wall of Denial bruised Alive [54671]
Wall of Denial tapped Alive [51045]
Wall of Denial tapped Alive [55500]
Wall of Denial tapped Alive [57144]
Wall of Denial bruised Alive [51959]
Average Damage: 61,802

Wall of Denial bruised Melkor 'Master of the Fates' [394025]
Wall of Denial tapped Melkor 'Master of the Fates' [388377]
Wall of Denial bruised Melkor 'Master of the Fates' [419190]
Wall of Denial bruised Melkor 'Master of the Fates' [346788]
Wall of Denial bruised Melkor 'Master of the Fates' [513354]
Wall of Denial tapped Melkor 'Master of the Fates' [343719]
Wall of Denial bruised Melkor 'Master of the Fates' [323538]
Wall of Denial pounded Melkor 'Master of the Fates' [382715]
Wall of Denial tapped Melkor 'Master of the Fates' [516011]
Wall of Denial tapped Melkor 'Master of the Fates' [335457]
Average Damage: 396,317

Either way, The Vorpal blade is a joke.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 5 2010 1:33 PM EDT

wouldn't steel skin just make 390 *1.25?

AdminNightStrike April 28 2010 4:18 PM EDT

I'm not sure I see the problem here. Can you filter this one through Natasha first?

AdminTitan April 28 2010 5:34 PM EDT

I just ran the numbers, seems to be working as intended, if Jir wants I can posts the calculations in a bit.

Wraithlin April 28 2010 6:31 PM EDT

396k * 18% (390 armor + SS max) = 71k damage

Roughly correct, yes i left off the base reduction for simplicity.

255k * 60% (195 armor + SS max) = 153k damage

Not even close.

Steel skin claims that it makes the armor you have 25% more effective, meaning instead of reducing damage by .167% per point, it will reduce damage by .21% per point.

For the MoD the armor should be 390*.21 = 82% reduction.
For the Vorpal the armor should be 195 * .21 = 40% reduction.

Something with Vorpal blade or Steel skin is broken.

AdminTitan April 28 2010 7:27 PM EDT

390*.21 = 82%

82/2 = 41%

255*.41= 150k

255*.18 = 46k

There is not enough evidence from that to prove it's not working.

46k<82k<150k ; Don't forget damage is random.

396k*.18 = 71.3k

That's pretty dang close. So, that leaves only the VB, and I'd have to see some more conclusive repeating results before I believe it's not just a rough RNG.

AdminTitan April 28 2010 7:28 PM EDT

Sorry, that one line should read 255k*.59=...

Also, let's not forget 80k is almost double what we'd expect from full AC. So, like I said more evidence needed.

Wraithlin April 28 2010 7:30 PM EDT

That's why I concluded the problem is with Steel Skin or the VB, or at the very least thier interaction, not armor itself.

If we could get some data of VB vs non SS targets it might help narrow it down.

AdminTitan April 28 2010 7:32 PM EDT

I'm saying there isn't necessarily a problem damage gets multiplied times a RNG, from .5 to 2 I believe. So, without extensive testing there's no need to throw the red flag, if jir wants to test the vorpal blade to prove it go ahead.

Pwned April 28 2010 8:31 PM EDT

The random range means nothing if both are subject to it. I've said this before.... collect enough data and the random range becomes nothing

AdminTitan April 28 2010 8:33 PM EDT

I agree, 10 hit's is not enough data.

AdminNightStrike April 28 2010 11:08 PM EDT

Looks like you were right... Renamed title, moved to changelog, fixing...

AdminNightStrike April 28 2010 11:10 PM EDT

Thanks to the help of Natasha, this is now fixed.

Neither the VB nor the ES were ever actually reducing AC at all.

Thanks for not giving up on it. It's all very fixed now.

AdminNightStrike April 28 2010 11:10 PM EDT

In retrospect, this is actually a hugely significant changelog. Everyone thinks the VB is trash........

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 28 2010 11:17 PM EDT

so they never worked since their inception?

TheHatchetman April 28 2010 11:19 PM EDT

In retrospect, this is actually a hugely significant changelog. Everyone thinks the VB is trash........

Even I had given up hope on it... I no longer call it the best though thanks to AC being less popular than it once was and the MoD hammering it's way into the mix... But yay for not being paperweights anymore! :D

AdminNightStrike April 28 2010 11:19 PM EDT

I think it broke when the ES went in. The particular piece of code that set the vorpalness bit was actually triggering a server error, but that error was caught and discarded. I just rewrote that section, and verified that AC is cut in half by actually dumping out the numbers (actually, I dumped them to chatmails getting sent to Natasha.. :)

Demigod April 28 2010 11:32 PM EDT

Neither the VB nor the ES were ever actually reducing AC at all.

Holy crap. I'm glad someone noticed.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 28 2010 11:32 PM EDT

great catch then! ; )

AdminNightStrike April 28 2010 11:43 PM EDT

For the record, since the vorpalness of the weapons was never active, this means it wasn't cutting through Endurance, either. Both the endurance mod and the AC mod work.

QBOddBird April 29 2010 2:08 AM EDT

That explains my old weapon damage results that showed VB and ES to be utter trash in comparison to slightly higher base-damage weapons...I kind of wonder now how those same tests would fare.

AdminTitan April 29 2010 2:12 AM EDT

VB still does 70% the damage of the ELS on 0AC and End.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] April 29 2010 2:26 AM EDT

If VB does 70% of the damage of ELS then it out-damages the ELS when you face over 325 AC. This means VB is better against most walls and any team that uses ToE even if the number of teams using ToE is very small.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] April 29 2010 2:27 AM EDT

260 AC with SS.

QBJohnnywas April 29 2010 2:33 AM EDT

Damn I just got a nerf, even if it is putting things how they should be.

:)

AdminTitan April 29 2010 2:36 AM EDT

220AC with SS.

220*.21 = 46.2% reduction or 53.8% damage

110*.21 = 23.1% reduction or 76.9%

76.9%*.7= 53.83%

You can figure out what it is without SS, I don't feel like it right now.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 29 2010 3:59 AM EDT

O_O

Oh my.

Little Anthony April 29 2010 8:29 AM EDT

So...You can kill me now?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 29 2010 10:20 AM EDT

Awesome possum!

AdminTitan April 29 2010 11:13 AM EDT

275 with no SS, if anyone is truly *that* lazy.

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 29 2010 11:41 AM EDT

Awesome!

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- April 29 2010 5:22 PM EDT

I'm really glad this got taken care of, I *KNEW* it wasn't working as intended lol.

Good work NS!

iBananco [Blue Army] April 29 2010 6:52 PM EDT

So...You can kill me now?

Yes.
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