ENC and GS/Haste/AS (in General)

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 [SHIELD] September 9 2010 6:07 PM EDT

Why don't the stats gained from these spells confer ENC? It seems like that would give them some extra utility. Maybe not needed on AS, but Haste and GS could use the love.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 9 2010 6:14 PM EDT

GS already does, dex never increases enc and every time I asked for AS to apply I got laughed at

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 9 2010 6:55 PM EDT

Yo. That.

horseguy001 September 9 2010 8:49 PM EDT

I don't understand why GS would and AS wouldn't. It should either be both add or both don't add IMO.

Would certainly help the RoS out a little bit.

lostling September 9 2010 8:50 PM EDT

how about letting ROS boosted spells affect but non ROS boosted dont

AdminNightStrike September 9 2010 8:55 PM EDT

I think the original change log said something about how if AS applied, then other things would have to change to compensate.

horseguy001 September 9 2010 9:06 PM EDT

ah something along the lines of how it becomes more effective with more minions I'm assuming?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 9 2010 10:09 PM EDT

My Question is why doesnt Dex boost Enc... Then I could use my evasion wall to full effect Y_Y

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 9 2010 10:55 PM EDT

AS is already countered by a whole pile of stuff, and unless you make it 75% of your total team HP you're going to have people who DM you to death. Encumbrance will always be biased towards single minions (who already have other long term advantages) unless AS is given the same status as GS. GS and Haste sucking is a completely different issue that also needs addressing separately.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 9 2010 11:20 PM EDT

offensive and defensive enchantments do give encumbrance for the minions the stats are trained on. from the wiki:

Encumbrance (ENC) is used to calculate the NW allowance for armor and for weapons on each minion individually.


These factors relate to a number of NW that a specific minion can carry without having penalties.

it makes perfect sense to me that encumbrance is determined by experience distribution on that minion only. it makes no sense to me that i could hire a minion with no xp and then automatically get a large encumbrance limit on him due to existing enchantments elsewhere on the team. no thanks!

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 9 2010 11:22 PM EDT

That already happens with GS

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 9 2010 11:27 PM EDT

does the minion casting it double dip in the current system, getting both the trained aspect as well as the cast aspect?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 9 2010 11:28 PM EDT


Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 9 2010 11:36 PM EDT

that seems wrong to me then but very generous of jon to choose to do that with gs, i would likely consider myself damn lucky to have that!

how does ec interact with encumbrance from cast as opposed to trained stats then?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 9 2010 11:38 PM EDT

exactly the same way it does with intrinsics

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 9 2010 11:46 PM EDT

the highest gs in the game is around 8.5m (unboosted) and on a two minion team. if he hired a 3rd minion at the cheap rate and trained no xp on it. how much encumbrance would be gained just from the strength enchantment given no dm was in place?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 9 2010 11:49 PM EDT

would that come out to about 175m free encumbrance?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 9 2010 11:50 PM EDT

5,780,000m STR = 173,400,000 enc

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 9 2010 11:54 PM EDT

and the gs can give that on 4 minions plus the encumbrance on the minion training it.

do we honestly think it is a good idea, especially with the increasing cost effectiveness of ablative shield, to have that work in a similar manner? remember that the largest ablative shield in the game is over 20m levels.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 10 2010 12:09 AM EDT

I think multi minion teams need that boost to enc. It's hard enough to have damage dealers on multi minion teams without enc making it impossible. How is someone supposed to run a heavy tank or use dbs on anything but a single minion? Hell half the reason I finally let go of Dagobah was that I knew I'd never be able to beat Zenai with a tank because of encumbrance.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 10 2010 12:10 AM EDT

my 424 ac wall has less than 200m nw on him. this would basically allow a very low xp minion on a large team to bypass the encumbrance penalty to ac entirely and that is before you get into gear that would boost these numbers.

doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of encumbrance in the first place?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 10 2010 12:14 AM EDT

god forbid equipment do something...

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 10 2010 12:19 AM EDT

d'oh, i was looking at my encumbrance level on my wall. my nw is only 80m on that guy.

that does bring up another point though, my encumbrance level on that minion, earned the hard way is less than 200m on a team with 4 equal xp minions. the highest gs in the game could give almost that much encumbrance to a minion with no xp trained before any boosting gear comes into play.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 10 2010 12:23 AM EDT

Look at it this way, either GS and AS should both work, or neither... and if you pick neither realize that you're dooming multi minion teams to second tier status without RoE use or minion hires.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 10 2010 12:27 AM EDT

The reason at least as far as I understand it is this. AS does not confer real HP that is TSA regen is always based on HP trained, not AS HP. GS however, confers real str and this is why it adds to enc. This is in addition to the balance issues of giving AS enc benefits.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 10 2010 12:28 AM EDT

The reason why skills like BL and Archery are based on the GS enhanced str is also because that is real str.

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 [SHIELD] September 10 2010 12:29 AM EDT

GS Strength isn't really "real" strength, it doesn't get affected by bonuses the way the STR from a TSA does, for example.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 10 2010 12:29 AM EDT

Same goes for AS and SS. SS is not based on the AS granted HP but rather the base amount.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 10 2010 12:29 AM EDT

What balance issues? How is giving 4 minion teams a chance NW wise going to cause balance issues? What is it ok for my single minion to have double the NW of a ToA tank using AS despite having similar stats?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 10 2010 12:30 AM EDT

or, as i stated above, you could consider yourself damn lucky that jon was generous enough to make a concession. i doom no one and choose the option of leaving well enough alone!

there are many inconsistencies in the game. there is no law of consistency in the universe. it makes it easier to explain the game to others, but we do have a wiki to document the inconsistencies.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] September 10 2010 1:01 AM EDT

I like CB, how about we try and keep it that way.. If this were ever implemented USD user's would get such a bonus it wouldn't even be funny..

Lord Bob September 10 2010 1:17 AM EDT

GS already does, dex never increases enc and every time I asked for AS to apply I got laughed at
From a non-balance related, fridge logic standpoint, it makes sense that a person with more strength can carry heavier equipment. The ability to take a better punch or move quicker, not so much.

From a game balance standpoint, I agree with the original reasons given, though I would sell half my soul for Haste and RoS-backed AS to add Encumbrance at a rate equal to current Giant Strength.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 10 2010 4:36 AM EDT

What balance issues? How is giving 4 minion teams a chance NW wise going to cause balance issues?

Becuase they have kill slots.

Becuase they can use *all* the relevant ability boosting gear, without compromise.

Because Multi-minion teams have *so many* advantages over lesser minion count team, something is needed to equalise the balance somewhat.

And that's a higher ENC through XP concenration.

Seriosuly, if there were no downsides to playing a 4 minion team, we might just as well get rid of every other minion count.

There are only 2 things that 4 minion teams are at a disadvantge at over 3 or lower.

1: Less individual ENC, unless you use GS.
2: SoD Spread Damage.

That's it. And it's not enough.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 10 2010 10:06 AM EDT

A multi minion team will never match the focused xp of a single minion long term

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 10 2010 10:13 AM EDT

it would seem to me that you are saying that single minions can invest so much more in gear that they can essentially still gain a pretty substantial usd advantage over multiple minion teams? your solution would be to allow multiple minion teams the same ability to buy that advantage as well?

this would effectively leave mage team or magic-based teams with no way to keep up as they cannot buy damage.

it would make more sense to me, balance-wise, that if we have an aberration, deal with that case rather than making matters worse by giving others the same usd advantage.

this is why i stated earlier that the ideas in this thread seem to go against the whole purpose of encumbrance in the first place. wasn't encumbrance created just for this purpose? if it isn't doing its job for a certain section of the game then we can throw it out or bring the aberration in line. we have to assume that since jon created encumbrance, he wouldn't choose throwing it out...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 10 2010 10:42 AM EDT

A multi minion team will never match the focused xp of a single minion long term

That rather depends on what in though. Doesn't it. ;)

And if we take XP concentration away, what single remianing reason do we have to Single Minions?

They already are at a huge disadvantage to everyone else.

AdminNightStrike September 10 2010 12:17 PM EDT

GS is a good worthwhile spell.

Haste kinda blows.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 10 2010 12:23 PM EDT

My opinion on the two spells is pretty much the same as NS in terms of how useful it is.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 10 2010 12:32 PM EDT

strength has no effective cap so that more strength means more damage. with the cap on dex hits and lack of enc for dex is it any surprise that both the intrinsic as well as the enchantment are lackluster?

lostling September 10 2010 12:36 PM EDT

let haste include alittle evasion and alittle pth?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 10 2010 12:38 PM EDT

Evasion, sure. Evasion is overshadowed by BTCH anyway.

PTH, no.

For reason's I posted a little earlier. ;) PTH stacking would be too much.

ToA + Weapon + Leadership + Haste (+GoM/MC). Too much PTH! :P

AdminNightStrike September 11 2010 5:54 PM EDT

Hahah... you said Gom.....
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