Weapons Need Rebalancing (in General)


MissingNo September 12 2010 7:28 PM EDT

Here are all the weapon NWs. Comparing them makes it obvious that the MH and MoD are vastly overpowered compared to the lesser bladed weapons, which is why basically very few people even bother to upgrade the lesser ones. Why bother having a large BoTH or ELS when having a MH or MoD of the same size is exponentially better?

I'm not saying nerf the MH and MoD, I'm merely suggesting that all the weapons should be rebalanced relative to each other so that they are all viable options, instead of the way it is now where MoD is king and MH is queen.

Actually, I take that back, I find the MoD to be super overpowered. On its own, it's already the best weapon in the game. Coupled with the SoC, it is way too strong. It's death in a can, and I think it should be toned down by not working so well with the SoC, or at least let the less-loved melee weapons work with it as well.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 12 2010 7:30 PM EDT

Tulwars?

MissingNo September 12 2010 7:31 PM EDT

I was mainly talking about the Big Six.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 12 2010 7:35 PM EDT

The MH isn't as good as the BTh because of the base chance to hit, same for the els. The MoD is as useful as it is because of the prevalence of AS and PL, it's damage is low enough that it can't compete with the other larger base weapons without AS being involved.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 12 2010 7:36 PM EDT

I use the MoD currently because it can combine with the SoC to deal damage even if I have no str. Eventually I will be moving back to the VB though.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 12 2010 7:37 PM EDT

The MoD has the highest base 'Mace' class damage.

So it's the best weapon (for damage) to use with a SoC (and BL..), especially when facing AS/PL.

iBananco [Blue Army] September 12 2010 7:40 PM EDT

The MoD is easily superior to the VB against walls when you can train DM, especially when the wall is PLed.

MissingNo September 12 2010 7:41 PM EDT

You can't just say that the BoTH and ELS are better than the MH, the numbers speak for themselves. The biggest BoTH in the entire game is sitting in storage, and at least 1 other BoTH out of the top 5 is also sitting in storage. Besides TH, no one even cares about the ELS. His ELS is 124m, and that's well and fine, but look at the second biggest ELS, 38m!? That shows how much love the weapons get compared to the MH and MoD.

QBOddBird September 12 2010 7:44 PM EDT

Keep in mind that the MH and BoTH only *look* like their damage modifier is as big as it is - the MH is slightly weaker than the ELS when you compare equally upgraded weapons, and the BoTH compares with a katana.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] September 12 2010 8:45 PM EDT

MH over powered, hahahahahahahahahaha.... wait, I'm not done...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

You made my day.

(Now the MoD, you got a point there, but it's a supporter item and NS needs some cash XD)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 12 2010 10:28 PM EDT

I can and did say that. In real world terms they hit more, and hitting more is better than hitting harder. There are teams I couldn't beat with a BoNE or Morg than I can defeat with an ELS or BTh. The base chance to hit increase is huge these days.

iBananco [Blue Army] September 12 2010 11:48 PM EDT

Nov: At best, you're getting an extra 20 PTH out of it, and that's only if you have greater or equal DX. Any less, and you're not even getting 20 extra.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] September 13 2010 1:10 AM EDT

^ incorrect

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] September 13 2010 1:17 AM EDT

Statement retracted, but I would like to point out that the difference between 40cth and 60cth, is 50% more hits XD

MissingNo September 13 2010 1:54 AM EDT

Oh true, Novice. Ignore the statistics and keep insisting that you're right. If you were right, then the ELS and VB and BoTH would have more users instead of being paperweights in storage.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 13 2010 2:00 AM EDT

popularity is only one way of measuring the overpoweredness of an item

I'm not ignoring the stats, I'm pointing out that in real life terms they're not always the best weapon. The additional base chance to hit and ability to hit in round one despite having a ranged weapon are huge.

I'd like to know what you think would better balance the top weapons?

QBJohnnywas September 13 2010 2:11 AM EDT

The SoC is the reason those two handed weapons are being used for the most part. The SoC is simply too good not to use.

MissingNo September 13 2010 2:26 AM EDT

Yeah, exactly, that was kinda my main point. It's not the weapons by themselves which are extremely overpowered, even though I think the MoD is, but it's the ability to use in conjunction with the SoC that pushes it way over the edge.

So I propose to either to weaken the SoC or allow the paperweight weapons to able to work with it, or to weaken the MH and MoD.

MissingNo September 13 2010 2:27 AM EDT

And the MoD is 1-handed, so it doesn't suffer penalties that the MH would when used in conjunction with ranged weapons.

MissingNo September 14 2010 6:27 AM EDT

So that's it? No one has anything to say about this?

Wraithlin September 14 2010 6:37 AM EDT

Sure, I got lots to say, but very few people agree with my ideas.

I think there needs to be about 10x the weapons/items/spells etc with alot more abilities and they would be alot easier to balance that way.

Since you currently only have one 1H mace with any real damage in the game it's obviously the best choice with the SoC. And it also happens to be the item that you tossed disruption on because it's a cool ability and you wanted a big six weapon to put it on.

If there was a high dps hammer and a disruption item that were different then it wouldn't be as bad, or if there were other abilities you would have to pick from other than disruption.

Anyways, more choices = easier to balance also means happier people since they have choices to make instead of just grabbing the 1 item that's obviously the best for thier strat.

MissingNo September 14 2010 6:50 AM EDT

I definitely see your point and I agree with you, but that doesn't really say anything about the problem at hand. I'm not talking about a major addition to the game, I'm talking about balancing the weapons that currently exist.

Wraithlin September 14 2010 7:04 AM EDT

You can't balance the current weapons is my point, unless you just want to make them all the same weapon. Which is probably best for the current community and would actually make most happy.

Currently the weapons are just different enough to have 1 for each strat, they actually don't really need any balancing as an item, what you're actually complaining about is a strat not an item.

You don't like the SoC/hammer strat, i'm guessing because you're usually on the wrong end of it. But it's very easily counterable and I actually don't see anything OP with it at all.

MissingNo September 14 2010 7:14 AM EDT

No, actually, I am not at the wrong end of it, because I don't do melee. In fact, the MoD + SoC is currently something I am using on my strat, and that's why I realized that it is overpowered. My minion will do millions at the end of the battle from just the shield and the MoD without my minion having any STR and the MoD being base.

And if you don't see how that's overpowered, then I feel sorry for you.

QBJohnnywas September 14 2010 7:18 AM EDT

I don't think it's overpowered. Here's why. In order to do millions of damage with the set up you have (ie using it on a non tank) you have to face somebody doing millions of damage. It doesn't work against non tanks, it doesn't do much against low level tank damage. It only really does the super large damage against superlarge tanks. And then you need to be able to survive to melee to get the large reactive damage it supplies. Which isn't easy against the big archer teams.

MissingNo September 14 2010 7:19 AM EDT

And honestly, what are you talking about? They can't be rebalanced because that would make them 1 item?

No, they can be balanced. The damage modifier can be tweaked and so can the effects that each weapon has. This would involve mere tweaking of some numbers, but the effects for each weapon would stay the same.

So please enlighten me about how lowering the damage of one weapon or changing a number when it comes to the effects (like the MoD doing 1.5x against AS instead of 2x) is impossible?

MissingNo September 14 2010 7:25 AM EDT

JW, I see where you're coming from, but I still think that system is broken.

And the original point of this post is not to complain about the MoD, it is to address the fact that the lower weapons are crappy compared to the godly MoD and MH and therefore should be tweaked so that that they actually become viable options of usage.

Wraithlin September 14 2010 7:48 AM EDT

Right now the current Big Six are almost all identical in damage, there is not alot of difference, and the current difference that does exsist is for a reason.

The above post explaining why the MoD isn't OP is exactly my opinion, it's only really good in one case, which is what it was meant for. So complaining something is OP when it's working as intended is a bit silly.

If you start "tweaking" damage of all the weapons that are more powerful than others you will eventually get 6 weapons that all do the same damage. That's what I meant by only having one weapon. (Well technically two, a ranged and a melee).

MissingNo September 14 2010 8:01 AM EDT

Thank you for calling my opinion silly. I guess it can't be overpowered because it's supposed to work that way? What about if it works too well, doesn't that make it overpowered. It's pretty obvious most people use a MoD now for a reason. It's free damage, doing millions with having base STR and a base MoD. Oh, on top of that, it does twice the damage against AS, and completely ignores PL. That seems a bit overpowered to me.

Insult me if you like, but it's called balancing. Jon has tweaked stuff all the time because it worked the way it was intended, but it worked too well. That's the whole idea of balancing, so I guess it's not really that silly after all. This game is dynamic, constantly changing, not static.

Also, the Big Six are nowhere near each other in damage. Not even close.

Yeah, and the difference exists so that no one in the game is interested in the VB, ELS, and BoTH, which is why I included the link of the highest weapons NW.

Again, I am repeating this from a previous post:

"The biggest BoTH in the entire game is sitting in storage, and at least 1 other BoTH out of the top 5 is also sitting in storage. Besides TH, no one even cares about the ELS. His ELS is 124m, and that's well and fine, but look at the second biggest ELS, 38m."

So yes, all the weapons are similar in damage, right? Is that why everyone uses eihter a MH or a MoD?

I am not suggesting that all the weapons do the same damage, I am asking for the stupidly weak lesser Big Six weapons to be fixed so that they become VIABLE OPTIONS.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 14 2010 8:18 AM EDT

it's only really good in one case

Not really true mate.

It's the highest damageing 'Mace' class Weapon. Only beaten by the Bone, ELS and Exec, all of which have no 'special'.

So it's the best damage option to use with the SoC.

It's also the best wepaon to use when facing AS, and outdamages any other weapon in the game. AS is also the most train spell/stat behind natural HP. So you face it quiet frequently.

It's also the best Weapon to use when facing PL, bypassing it totally, regardless of size (maybe that's an idea, have a portion of damage bypass PL, depending on size...).

So it's most often then not the most damageing weapon in the game (when facing AS), is 1 handed so doesn't suffer the 2H penalty, works with the SoC and ignores PL.

This is the best total package *any* Melee weapon has in the game.

Sure, there might be a reason to use a VB or a Morg/BoTH, if you need the AC reduction or 20% life leech.

But apart form those niches, the MoD is the best option for anything else.

MissingNo September 14 2010 8:33 AM EDT

Exactly. The MoD has 3 effects while all the other weapons only have 1. And the MoD's 3 effects are freaking super-powerful, which is why I called it overpowered.

Most people flock to the MoD because it's so powerful as seen by the top 5 NWs compared to the other weapons' NWs. And again, it is the only weapon able to PWN while it is BASE with base stats.

I didn't make this thread, however, to ask the MoD to be nerfed (although in my personal opinion, it should), but that the other weapons be changed so that they are, once again, VIABLE OPTIONS.

Wraithlin September 14 2010 8:41 AM EDT

As I was saying in tells with Gear, it has the AS kill and the PL ignore because it NEEDS them in order to work as an anti-tank weapon that isn't the ExBow.

Otherwise you can run a tank team and have no fear from the MoD by just tossing a wall minion out front and either getting a PL battery or large AS. Then the MoD just fails.

All I'm saying is that the MoD is working great as it is, I think needs no tweaks. Maybe there was a bit of a miscommunication there because I don't think all the weapons are good to go.

I'd love to see every weapon that is under-utilized looked at again to see if there was some unique way to change it to get it a new role.

But again we're back to the huge need this game has for having more options than we currently have.

MissingNo September 14 2010 8:48 AM EDT

Yes, the whole point of this thread (this feels like the 30th time I've said this) is to address that the other weapons (VB, BoTH, ELS) need more love, because they aren't good enough to use compared to the MoD or MH.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 14 2010 8:51 AM EDT

One mans buff is another mans nerf. ;)

Wraithlin September 14 2010 8:57 AM EDT

Introduce set item bonuses with the elven set, and make the elven longsword part of those bonuses.

Introduce random bonuses to the game and give the VB a %chance to deal massive damage.

BoTH is boring as just the 1H version of the MH. Introduce taunting effect into the game and make the BoTH a wall weapon with the effect of forcing everyone to attack that character with physical first (overriding ExBow/AxBow/Mageseeker targetting). But only the first attack of the round goes to him if he's not the current target of the weapon. So if you were firing the ExBow and you would get 3 shots that round, the first would go to the wall no matter what and the last two would target normally.

Wraithlin September 14 2010 9:01 AM EDT

BoNE, give it a melee version of the SoD splash. Have it only be 10% or so instead though. Or just have it hit the first 2 minions and have the splash be around 35%.

MissingNo September 14 2010 9:18 AM EDT

I think a much easier way would be to increase the damage modifier of the useless weapons. Like OB said, the BoTH damage is about the same as a katana. That way, even though they don't have super awesome effects like the MoD, they still become viable options.

Though an even easier way would be to nerf the MoD. Before it was created, the weapons had a more even balance.

That is why I called the MoD overpowered in the first place. You can't look at it by itself. You have to compare it relative to the other weapons. If is superior to the other weapons that means it's overpowered.

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 September 14 2010 9:29 AM EDT

The MoD is pretty strong, yes. The SoC is actually pretty useless barring use on an enchanter. Anyone you would beat with the SoC is so much easier to counter with an ExBow that really the only case in which having an SoC is any use is if you yourself are being str drained, in which case you've probably already lost.

MissingNo September 14 2010 9:33 AM EDT

It's not useless on an enchanter. It still reflects millions of damage. On my strat, it's currently on my RoBF user but before that, it was on my enchanter and like I said, it reflected millions of damage being a base MoD + SoC and having no trained STR or DX.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] September 14 2010 9:45 AM EDT

Somebody needs to learn the definition of barring...

MissingNo September 14 2010 8:57 PM EDT

Whoops I skipped the word "barring" when I read Slayer's post. But even then I disagree too. Loook at the top MoD NWs. I doubt those people are using a MoD without a SoC.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 14 2010 9:08 PM EDT

1 out of 5 uses SoC 2 out of 5 use MgS, 2 out of 5 use MS. This is out of the top 5 NW MoDs. Though I will admit that the only reason I use a MoD is because I have the ability to switch over to the SoC at any time to throw off Nov if he tries to farm me. Just like I use my exbow to throw off Zen if he tries to farm me.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 14 2010 9:43 PM EDT

The SoC sucks for me as I'm setup now (or with the ToA)
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