Hellfire rules, Valinor Sucks (in General)

Mythology January 24 2005 1:59 AM EST

It is true, we didnt make a pact with the PR demon, sorry but is this just not a bit ridiculous?

Clan 1 Hellfire :
Members - 7
PR total - 514,531

Clan 2 Sentinels of Valinor :
Members - 8
PR total - 128,006

When presented with this information Id assume Hellfire would be closer to the barrier, but nope, it is infact Sentinels... (to noobs, the PR barrier is the point where a clan can no longer accept new members because of PR restrictions).

Ive campaigned for a long time to just let clans have 10 members each and no other restrictions but thats going nowhere. Could we at least have a re-evaluation of the PR mechanics?

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] January 24 2005 3:04 AM EST

As higher PR characters are more likely to have lower BA regain rates and the majority of them are being quite heavily farmed I have to agree with the 10 people, no PR restrictions idea.
Hellfire planned well and deserve to have some advantage but the simple fact that most of them are unbeatable to most (if not all) people outside their clan has to be enough of an advantage.

Well done Hellfire but I've got to agree with Myth, it needs to at least re-evaluated.

Todd January 24 2005 6:29 AM EST

More PR members is a huge advantage.
1. You have 8, we have 7. Do the math on potential fights per day.
2. Most of our team refreshes at 7 BA/ 10 minutes. You guys are probably all around 9-10 per 10 minutes. Do the math on potential fights per day.

Yes, there are a few of Hellfire who cannot be farmed (I'm not up to speed, but I think we only have 2-3 players who cannot be farmed, leaving 4-5 who can?)

Hellfire was hand picked to include players who get over 2,500 points per day, purchase BA and avg 15,000 pts per week. That is no small task we are placing with each member.

If Jon did away with the PR limit, it's not hard to imagine how this would be abused and your top clans would simply be those who are not farmable. We've had clans in CB1 for quite a while, Jon didn't just make up the rules for CB2, there is a lot of thought into this.

Sounds like Valinor just needs a new coach :P

Mythology January 24 2005 7:17 AM EST

Nothing like arguing both sides aye Todd, look low PR, they have the advantage, no wait no they dont, oops, wait again yes they do.

Im not complaining for the sake of Valinor, some of us look at the overall fairness of things, Sentinels was top all last week why would I complain? Jjust now its getting silly that 1 member is equal to the difference of 400K PR (at time of writting is 80% of Hellfire's PR Total PR).

Todd January 24 2005 7:27 AM EST

My point was that Hellfire CAN be beat. A clan made up of mostly low PR people will win if their members are online as much as say, Hellfire members are.

Clans made up of 10 ppl with low PR will always have the advantage. (but how long will they all be low PR, that is the trick).

Todd January 24 2005 7:29 AM EST

Oooops, I see your point.

My first line should have read "More LOW PR members is a huge advantage:" Since, of course, it doesn't make much sense the way it it's written now :)

private January 24 2005 8:04 AM EST

A big reason Hellfire has so many high PR members is that only people who spend a lot of BA get in. Anyhow, the formula is designed to consider both PR and number of players. By taking the sqrt of the PR, it makes it so that 2 low PR chars count much more than one high PR char with it's PR total equal to the sum of the other two chars...which makes sense.

Mythology January 24 2005 8:25 AM EST

I'll put it a different way.

Avg PR per member : 74K

Avg PR per member : 16K

That is a HUGE difference, whereas the difference in member numbers is just 7 and 8, and SoV is closer to the PR Barrier? Just simply explain to me how that is fair?

If I was explaining this to a new player I dont know how I could, "Why is my clan over PR barrier?", "Well because you have 8 members", "Yeah but we are like 1/4 the size of Hellfire and they have 7 members", "Yeah, its strange like that".

Todd January 24 2005 9:08 AM EST

Ok, let me put it another way as well.

The ultimate clan (read: highest clan points) is made up of 10 people whose characters are low PR where they get 10 BA/10 minutes. These 10 people need to be fighting all the time.

That ultimate clan will always beat the Hellfires, no matter what Hellfire's total PR is.

Look at CB1. Hellfire had some silly total PR, but were beat in clan points, buy MastaKilerz, or whatever they were called(I'm sure someone will correct me). The PR ratio was even greater than it is between hellfire and valinor in CB2.

You seem to think having a high PR is an advantage with clans. It is not(except that there are less people who can farm you).
Clan A: 10 members getting 10 BA/10 minutes all day (plus the newbie catch up bonus + ability to buy more BA) Total combined PR could be less than 100.
Clan B: 7 members getting 7 BA/10 minutes all day. Total PR could be more than 10,000,000.

Clan A still wins in clan points (assuming all the members fight the same amount)

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] January 24 2005 9:25 AM EST

Todd, what you're saying is that high PR isn't an advantage.

So why is the PR barrier necessary? Low PRs have the advantage yet they aren't allowed to let a high PR join, instead they're allowed to let someone who can score more points join... how does that make any sense?

I totally agree with you about the disadvantages of high PRs, also obviously buyable BA drops by over 100 for a 7/10 in comparison to 10/10.

But earlier you said that without a PR barrier it'd be abused, a clan would just have unfarmable characters... well that is what Hellfire is.
There a two dominant characters out there, 1, The Steveh, high PR, great tat, solid strat. 2, Hypnotoad, high PR, solid strat. The Steveh is unbeatable in first fight right now, the only two character's I've seen beat Hypnotoad are in your clan, you've also got The First who's another top character. You also had Inception for a while. You have the top characters, yet you are beatable.

So why the need for a PR barrier?

Todd January 24 2005 9:30 AM EST

We are farmable. There are 7 members in Hellfire.

Surely you are not suggesting that Hellfire, the way it is now, compares to my reason for having the PR cap: abuse by creating a team of unbeatable players?

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] January 24 2005 9:42 AM EST

That's exactly what I'm suggesting.

500k total PR to 120k is a big diference.
Hellfire has top chars, you could have the top 7 and you'd still lose to a small char clan.

Any more than the top 2 and you're able to be farmed, top 2 = max of 10k score, you get more and you'll be farmed even with the top 7 characters. A CB2 version of Demonic Hoarde (most of which were on 9/10 or 8/10) would beat it. How is it abusing the system if you can still be beaten with the same (if not less) effort being put into it.

Mythology January 24 2005 9:48 AM EST

Todd what are you trying to say, one replyyou say that if there was no PR Cap it would be abused, next reply you admit that the lowest PRs are best are clan fighting, please pick where you stand on the issue before commenting.

Last request, could we not just try clans with no PR cap? If it dosent work out, one unbeatable top level char clan forms, so be it go back. At the moment as Todd has pointed out :

Top chars, lower ba but not farmed.
lower chars, more ba but farmed.

I dont see where the need for PR cap in that comes from. At the moment I cant see the logic behind one clan member equalling 400K PR and the rest 12K PR, I see the reasoning behind the concept but it seems very off balance.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 24 2005 9:55 AM EST

My only thoughts on the matter are with a low PR high member clan, if they are constantly scoring enough points to get them to a top spot, other clans can farm them to (at least) try to keep their points down. They might be able to earn more points than a lower member high PR clan, but if that high PR clans members (or at least the majority) can't be beaten, there's no way to lower the high PR clans points...

The more members that can be farmed, the easier and quicker it is to lower the clan point total.

As long as people are willing to fight for lower rewards for clan points that is...


AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 24 2005 9:57 AM EST

Not only did myth beat me to it, he managed to condense the point I wanted to make into a more digestable form...


I really don't want to do any more work today...

AdminShade January 24 2005 10:00 AM EST

Top chars, lower ba but not farmed.
lower chars, more ba but farmed.

5 top chars with 7 ba / 10 minutes can get 3 clan points form whom ever they want.
for 12 hours worth of ba +160 when waking up this could be 664 BA per player * 5 makes around 3320 fights total which could equal to 9960 clan points

5 low characters get 8 / 10 9 / 10 or 10 / 10 ba perhaps (average of 9 / 10 ) but cannot farm whomever they want and get only half of the 3 point fights and the other half for 2 points.
for 12 hours worth of ba +160 when waking up this could be 808 BA per player * 5 makes around 4040 fights total which could equal to 10100 clan points.

but here is the tricky part. the higher character clan can farm the lower in which every 3 point clan fight they fight VS. the lower pr clan they can get the other clan to lose 2 points every fight.

then thinking about how much this can happen (lets think about 1/4th of the fights) this could count for 830 fights making the lower clan lose 1660 points making them end up at around 8440 points.

conclusion: high pr clan wins

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] January 24 2005 10:05 AM EST

Shade, you're forgetting that very few people are dumb enough to attack a 10k pr character with a 300k pr character.

Mythology January 24 2005 10:16 AM EST

While it is a nice comparison shade, your figures are incorrect,
7ba / 10 = 664 ba. If evey fight is v a 3 clan = 1992 clan points.
10 ba / 10 = 880 ba. If every fight is v a 3pt clan = 2640 clan points.

Then if you factor in that most people do not sleep for 12 hours of the day, majority buy ba (or ones that count) and that when a clan member loses a battle its 1cp not 2 your final totals will be rather different and the high PR players will lose out badly, AND only people like Di only attacked players that were like 10K PR when they were a couple of mil.

AdminShade January 24 2005 10:34 AM EST

I did a comparison on equal amount of TIME invested and both clans having 5 people in it. Perhaps re calculate it then :)

Quark January 24 2005 10:56 AM EST

Only comment - another restriction to Todd's clanners is that they can't buy as much BA, and what they do buy is quite expensive. Whereas lower PR chars can buy more total BA and at a lower per BA cost. All in all, I think it is still reasonable - the game puts a maximum limit on how much BA Todd's guys can burn in their semi-invincible status, whereas the lower PR players are given a higher BA burn limit to offset the expected farming.

Also - don't forget that the higher Hellfire gets in total PR, the higher the PR limit is in the lower clans. My clan had a 12k PR limit early last week which is now up to close to 50K PR. That's got to be a combination of my team growing more slowly as well as the cap being raised. I'm guessing that the system calculates PR caps based on the largest PR clan. So over time as Hellfire becomes more invincible (= higher PR) more members are allowed in the lower clans.

Seems like Jon balanced this one pretty well.

Mythology January 24 2005 11:00 AM EST

It goes on the top 4 PR characters if im not mistaken, has nothing to do with clans.

As far as I can see from your post you made two observations, drew a comparison and from that one fact have decided upon the conclusion that everything is balanced.

We're not talking about characters rates been unbalanced or things increasing, thats fairly obviously okay. We're saying IF everything is balanced why is there a PR cap.

Majestik Moose January 24 2005 11:04 AM EST

heh.. I like the title of this thread
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001Aet">Hellfire rules, Valinor Sucks</a>