Armor Store (in General)
February 11 2005 1:21 PM EST
I think Capitalism is awesome. Capitalism is a wonderful economic system. If Adam Smith were reanimated directly in front of me, I would shake his Invisible Hand with glee. Sometimes I drape myself in Capitalism and swoop around the house like a giddy schoolgirl. Sweet, sweet Capitalism, you rock my world!
The armor store, on the other hand, is the most pathetic, retarded, stupidest construct it has ever been my displeasure to enter (about two dozen times in the last 24 hours for testing purposes).
Each of those times I found nothing. Entire families of goods gone missing. Hell, this morning the Fluted Steels were even gone. It's ridiculous.
In chat, I hear "Yep, yep, yep, it's crazy, isn't it? Check auctions if you need something."
No. Thanks. I am not going to check auctions and give my money to a group of persons who are, in my estimation, collaboratively farming the store out of each and every useful item on a continuous basis. Note: collaboration does not have to be intentional or even communicative. I am not saying this is a conspiracy. But when a mob acts in such a way as to preclude all others not in that mob, that is a collaborative effort.
If this is policy, then by all means, let's embrace the auction idea. Spawn the useful goods directly to auction, and let the Invisible Hand rule with an iron fist. Why should a group of people, people who have the time to sit and click endlessly, add an unnecessary layer of profiteering to the mix? Is there a need for this? Is CB2 founded upon the notion that certain people need to be able to convert basic leather armor and heumes into USD?
I have always thought camping was retarded -- I don't think that is any secret. If the camping were used in a way to really better a character, really blend some carnage, that would be fine. That would be wonderful. Hell, I'd appreciate the competition. But can anyone name me a full-on camper with a character in the Top 20 score or PR? Top 50? 100?
Jonathan once referred to large characters becoming forgers for cash (something I did for a great while) as "lame". If that's lame, then this would have to be considered absolutely pitiful, no?
The stores CAN work. The weapon store seems completely fine. Ammo is plentiful and there are basic weapons galore. Campers, why not clean out all the weapons and auction those off in a controlled fashion?
* More armor being spawned. Not sure if this is the main issue or not, but someone in chat mentioned that even this basic items are too rare to spawn, and that is why this phenomenon exists.
* Telling newbies to stop buying crap from auctions. Who in their right mind would by a Heume at a marked up price? Come on, people.
* Spawning items directly to auction if they are going to continue to be rare enough that even basic stuff gets camped.
* Campers leaving basic items in the store.
DISCLAIMER: I don't even want any armor. I don't plan on armoring up for several 100K PR or more. I am worked up about this on principle alone.
February 11 2005 1:24 PM EST
I agree. The came says HLA's are common armor. Common? I can't get one. Well I could now, but not easy enough that I call them common.
February 11 2005 1:37 PM EST
I can name you quite a few campers that have made their way into the top 20, 50, or 100. Take a look at CB1 for example. Saint and Di were both very well known for their camping ability. Both were among the most elite of characters there.
I don't have the time at the moment to refute any of your other points, but needless to say, camping of any items of moderate value has (and will likely always will) been a strong part of this game. Not everyone has the aspirations to be the Top Dog in PR.
You say yourself that you have not intention of purchasing armor any time in the forseeable future, so what exactly is your gripe with the situation? Truth be told, if you have an issue with the fact that junk items are getting sold at a mark-up to the consumer, then you are already doing about all you can to counter this. Simply put: Don't purchase the items at the marked up prices that you disagree with. Once you can get enough people to join you in that, profit margins will go down on junk items, and eventually (in theory) people will stop camping them.
That said, I'm gonna go camp me some more HLA's to sell at ridiculous prices.
February 11 2005 1:46 PM EST
My gripe is that the campers are a needless layer. If essentially all armor is ending up in auctions, why not just spawn it there? Especially if any substantial portion of the camping proceeds get converted into USD, then all that layer does is line the real-life pockets of the campers. Even the "lame" forging for USD in CB1 at least had the end result of increasing weapons. The camp layer (in this extreme "auction everything" scenario) adds NOTHING to the game.
Saint and Di were higher up because of longevity and lots of fighting. When Di was heads-down fighting with Angua, she was not camping nearly as much (she simply couldn't have been -- it isn't mathematically possible).
Can you name me someone who uses at least half their BA to camp here in CB2 who is in the Top 50 score? That is a genuine question -- I have no idea, because I don't know who camps and who doesn't.
Finally, I have tried the "don't pay so much!" plea before. It has never worked. Some of that is ignorance, some apathy. Perhaps that is the attitude I should be adopting...I don't know and I don't care. *smile*
February 11 2005 1:46 PM EST
i sure can't rant as much as Chet but i'm with him.
I can't say that I disagree with you, however unless you are able to convince almost everyone in the CB2 community, nothing is going to change.
February 11 2005 2:31 PM EST
Jon has said he likes the "merchant class" (in CB1, anyways). If items spawned directly to auctions, the middleman merchant is eliminated.
I have to agree with everything you said Chet. It's pretty ridiculous that the 'common' items are half impossible to find in the store. If only they spawned often enough, then maybe people would eventually stop buying them out in order to make a 3k profit in auctionsn. But ah well. It is pretty silly- like in CB1 where you could never find bows or xbows in the store because people bought without needing- and check it now. They flooded the stores with all of the weapons that could have been helping new players before. This doesn't really feel like capitalism, I'd say it's more like scalpers taking advantage of new players for not knowing better than paying huge amounts for basic gear.
Saddest part is, I can't see this improving without change. Even with the lower char limits, some people will probably continue to amass tons of basic items they don't need in order to try to make a 'profit' of however many pennies off of unsuspecting newbies. Ah well.
February 11 2005 4:16 PM EST
Can we get a reason on why Jon likes the "merchant" class? What purpose does it serve when it comes to these basic items? I suppose it sort of acts as a money sink, since people have to spend more on gear, but it all just ends up as USD in a lot of cases.
How is this merchant class serving the CB2 community? Are they providing higher levels of services? Competition? New opportunities and innovations? That's the point of capitalism. And that seems completely lacking in this case. How is swiping up basic gear and instantly placing it into auctions a laudable skill?
There is a difference between true merchants and opportunists.
February 11 2005 4:21 PM EST
"Q: Why don't you add any of the zillions of methods you could use to limit store campers' (people who spend a disproportionate amount of time checking the store for refreshes) ability to dominate the supply of good items?
A: Short answer: Because the CB economy is capitalistic, not socialistic.
Longer answer: rewarding players who put more effort into this part of the game enhances the economical metagame. For some reason nobody complains that Joe Newbie can't beat the #1 guy who has worked his butt off to get there, but anyone with half a brain (maybe that's the problem) seems to think it grossly unfair that people who spend more time in the stores get more good items. Other games like to have explicit "merchant classes;" CB achieves the same effect without the extra complexity simply by allowing you to choose where to spend your BA -- fighting, forging, or in the stores. Note that it's a self-balancing system: if it's too easy to make large amounts cash camping, more people will do it, making it harder to earn as much money."
-Jonathan. (Located in the FAQs, under Store)
February 11 2005 4:29 PM EST
I remember when I started CB1 the only thing in the stores where Leather Scale Mail, and Slings, this is not as bad...
February 11 2005 4:31 PM EST
Seems to me that camping could be a tougher way of making money than fighting. You're guaranteed CB2 for each fight you win. I can easily blow 160 BA camping and walk away with nothing, especially if i'm camping at the same time as a certain person(s).
If anything, Jonathan has made camping more a part of CB2 with the introduction of economic clans. I, personally, am in a fighting clan where I camp and pass on the items to my clanmates, so in essence, my camping is part of a team effort to help help my clanmates reach the Top 20 PRs.
if all they say is check auctions, then boycott the system, if no one buys then they will waste their cash posting and realize(maybe)that its not worth charging such amounts.
February 11 2005 4:47 PM EST
Welcome to the "anyone with half a brain" club, Chet. I am president and founder!
February 11 2005 5:06 PM EST
The big problem, for me, is the fact that the successful campers are USD only. Robbing the purist players of any opportunity to get high-end gear without it passing through several people.
Camping has become a greed sport. I see auctions being listed with over 1 million buy-it-nows when less then 10% of the CB population has that much cash on hand... Jon wont get rid of camping in CB2. May as well tie up your pony and wait for cb3.
February 12 2005 12:42 AM EST
Alright, I think this is an important distinction:
Chet doesn't seem to have a problem with campers who can't for things like Tulks, HGs, BoMs, Elbows, or other rares. They camp for those, go them.
But common items should be COMMON. I say, infinate leather spawning. Set up a system where items that are common refresh like Ammo, fast. And plentiful. That way, common items are common.
February 12 2005 1:15 AM EST
Looks like Jon has heard your "request". I'm not sure if I'm correct but it seems that the leathers, cabs, robes and such are spawning more often now. I've noticed that sometimes 2 of them spawning at the same time. Maybe I'm mistaken but I'm not sure.
February 12 2005 4:17 AM EST
Alright, i see all this about the campers and as one i need to speak up. First yes selling those infinity common items such as leathers and stuff for high price, we expect the big boys and girls to buy em, not the newbs. I for one stay in new players, and if asked lend for a week a newb pack usualy consisting of those same leathers and "common" armors that we so covet to take from everyone. Yes this is a capatalistic system in which i do sit here for hours on end clicking the refresh button hoping for a pretty shiny or a nice bit or leather, but in the end sombody is getting the better end of the bargain
< the purchaser>
I mean, yea i may make for a week of hoping for a rare or some sort, about a 600k-800k salary, the person who buys from me that neat shiny, with it is able to make a HUGE profit in a month considering the wacky times and such. I enjoy the aspect of hagglin " being the middle woman" <~ PC
any thoughts please post
The Camp Kingdom
February 12 2005 7:14 AM EST
Actually I think if the store started charging more of the "Realized " prices for the Rare Items as tracked by item meta stats..I.E Elven Gloves +760k over NW..or what ever it is, then thats the store price..if poeple keep paying more for these items well the store prices reflect that...Item meta stats can be updated by either using Auctions/AND/Or FS/WTB..I tell you right now though..the camping issue and is a Dead Horse and has been for as long as I have been around CB and thats more than 18 months..so good luck
February 12 2005 7:17 AM EST
in essence what I said is that a camper isn't going to buy an HLA if he knows he can't make any money off of it..so there it is still in the store for someone who needs it and will use it instead of one who doesn't have a real job and sits and refreshes the store all day long to make his little pocket money..
February 12 2005 8:54 AM EST
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