Looking for CB2 Protection data (in General)


someone[onabreak] March 5 2005 2:17 PM EST

Protection in CB2 is obviously very different from Protection in CB1. First of all, as Jon has pointed out, Protection in CB2 is not AC. Of course, that begs the question: What is it? Does it work like AC? Does it work like Endurance? Or is it something completely different?

My other question is: how does your Protection spell level relate to the spell's effect? The data I have so far is:

Protection level 1,000 = effect of (4) Protection level 1,180 = effect of (5)

Is it capped at around 72 with an algorithmic progression like in CB1? Can someone with a high level of Protection help out here?

Thanks :)

moser March 5 2005 2:44 PM EST

26,558 (14)

Sevare March 5 2005 2:46 PM EST

Protection: 26,293 (14) thats my protection numbers without a buckler equipped, its still 14 after the negitive is taken out.My guess is it acts as pure damage absorbtion rather then mitigation and absorbtion like old protection.. As for how much each (point) absorbs I have no clue.

someone[onabreak] March 5 2005 9:44 PM EST

That's a good guess. It seems to train MUCH more slowly than Protection in CB1 (example: my Prot in CB1 looks like Protection: 12,539 (42)), so I would assume that it is more effective at damage prevention than pure AC.

someone[onabreak] March 6 2005 12:04 PM EST

Finally hit 6.

Protection: 2,933 (6)

IndependenZ March 6 2005 12:29 PM EST

Protection: 6,503 (7)

TheEverblacksky March 6 2005 4:15 PM EST

yeah... that is a very interesting it says this Reduces damage taken by targets. Applied after armor. so... i have no clue. It must just absorb damage. Or does it reduce damage just like armor only after armor?

Will [Retired] March 6 2005 7:28 PM EST

is it possible that the number in brackets is the % that is absorbed after armor?

someone[onabreak] March 6 2005 7:40 PM EST

that's a possibility. can someone with a higher protection test that somehow? (wish i knew how)

Sevare March 6 2005 9:50 PM EST

the only way i could see this is 2 chars same exact stats and items/ac one with protection one without fighting the same person...but then theres even more variables to consider. Now i read at some point in a thread here someone asking how ac on armor absorbs and someone mentioned something about .21% per point...maybes its like that so the (number)*.21%=damage absorbed

HunterFrei March 7 2005 5:16 AM EST

no, you could do a couple of fights against the same person averaging the damage you take and then untrain protection and average that damage taken

Sevare March 7 2005 2:54 PM EST

untraining protection would make you lose experience, im happy having the highest protection number thank you :p

maulaxe March 7 2005 8:33 PM EST

you could save up a LOT of exp, battle someone a few times, then train all your exp into protection. this won't make you lose any exp (isn't it usually 10% lost when you untrain?).

but it would take a lot, because you would need to get another point in it. or just get near the level at which another point would be added, and then it wouldn't take as much...

Stephen March 7 2005 9:09 PM EST

And protection is the only way to add any pseudo-AC to a familiar isn't it?

someone[onabreak] March 7 2005 9:17 PM EST

Yes, just as AS is the only way (that I know of) to add HP to Tattoos of Flame/Steel/Ice.

Sevare March 8 2005 2:24 AM EST

true maulaxe, but im not sure anyones figured out the formula for when the next point of protection would be.

mihalis March 8 2005 9:04 AM EST

Looks like I had some spare time...
I trained AS only on my single minion, and hit the same victim for 20 BA. I then untrained AS for protection, and hit the same victim 20 more BA.
Average damage with AS: 1544 (=A)
Average damage with protection at 12,671 (10): 1390 (=P10)
Average damage with protection at 35,098 (16): 1322 (=P16)
By using the formula (A-P16)/A and (A-P10)/A I get 0.144 and 0.099. So protection does not really look like a percentage of damage reduction (not at 16). By using the formula (A-P16)/P16 and (A-P10)/P10 I get 0.168 and 0.110. With final formula (A-P16)/(A+P16), I have results 0.155 and 0.105.

20 BA is not a lot to put an average on, but hitting the same opponent takes some time... My guess would be that the ratio of damage dealt with protection related to damage dealt without protection looks like (1 + p/2)/(1 - p/2), where p is protection divided by 100. So basically, with protection at 200 you should be untouchable (when someone reaches that, please confirm this ;)

Now back to work...

someone[onabreak] March 8 2005 11:57 AM EST

Protection: 23,504 (13)

Gonna work on a chart soon.

someone[onabreak] March 8 2005 5:58 PM EST

Here's a chart with the data I have so far.

Sevare March 8 2005 9:11 PM EST

Protection: 28,095 (14) heres an update on my number, im guessing the next point will be 30kish which would mean a point of increase about ever 5-6k points in protection i think (just throwing a number from the top of my head, too worn out to try and do the math :P)

Sevare March 9 2005 3:07 PM EST

Protection: 28,761 (15) looks like I was wrong :P

someone[onabreak] March 11 2005 2:19 PM EST

Protection: 33,118 (16)

someone[onabreak] March 11 2005 2:21 PM EST

Protection: 38,452 (17)

Mechanical Dragon March 11 2005 10:01 PM EST

Protection: 4,751 (6)

Becoming March 11 2005 10:10 PM EST

Protection: 9,394 (9)

This is very very close to the 8 to 9 threshold.

Mechanical Dragon March 12 2005 5:09 PM EST

Protection: 4,962 (7)

Mythology [The Knighthood] March 12 2005 5:11 PM EST

Protection Power Unlearn
6982 7 55050
6452 7 50519
5974 6 46432
5648 6 43644
5617 6 43379
5580 6 43063
5479 6 42199
4696 6 35505
2641 5 18276
1710 5 11200
1685 5 11018
7108 8 56127
7197 8 56734
7210 8 57000
7361 8 58291

Becoming March 12 2005 5:12 PM EST

Protection: 11,919 (10)

Very close to the 9 to 10 transition.

Mechanical Dragon March 12 2005 5:53 PM EST

Protection: 5,286 (7)

Becoming March 12 2005 5:56 PM EST

Mechanical Dragon, your numbers seem to be off. Are you sure they're correct?

Mechanical Dragon March 12 2005 6:01 PM EST

Well, I'm copying them straight off my character's screen. If there's a bug I'm not aware of it. (Would the fact that I still have the newbie 75% bonus screw it up?)

Becoming March 12 2005 6:10 PM EST

The newbie bonus wouldn't affect that.

It's been a while since my protection was at that level, but your effect seems high. Maybe Myth's numbers are off?

mihalis March 12 2005 6:37 PM EST

Here's what I have:
Protection: 3,126 (6)
Protection: 4,828 (6)
Protection: 6,360 (7)
Protection: 7,738 (8)
Protection: 8,893 (8)
Protection: 9,898 (9)
Protection: 10,802 (9)
Protection: 11,616 (9)
Protection: 13,448 (10)
Protection: 14,822 (11)
Protection: 15,852 (11)
Protection: 16,625 (11)
Protection: 17,205 (11)
Protection: 17,784 (12)

Becoming March 12 2005 6:49 PM EST

Good data there MIhalis - helps to fill the gap some. :)

someone[onabreak] March 12 2005 9:17 PM EST

Just got 18 :)

Protection: 43,856 (18)

Thanks for all your numbers! I'll fill in the data in my spreadsheet and post a new chart soon!

Becoming March 12 2005 11:25 PM EST

Some of these data points are inaccurate. It's easy to pinpoint which ones if you graph them all, but it's not possible for me to accurately determine the proper values without retraining my own protection. =\

someone[onabreak] March 13 2005 12:00 AM EST

Here's an updated graph.



I'm no mathematician. Draw your own conclusions ;)

Tribute March 13 2005 12:20 AM EST

/me has a great idea! Maybe the initial training cost is actually between 4 and 5 so that if you have a high enough penalty, you could reach 3 not immediately, but after crossing the lowest level that you could get 4 at.

If you understood that at all and if I am even close to correct, the data graph would look much better!

*Silence. Crickets Chirp*

Hey, is that a demonic duck of some sort?
/me runs and hides.

someone[onabreak] March 13 2005 12:42 AM EST

heh :) I bought a bunch of high-penalty armor to test this and still couldn't reach 3 :)

Protection: 795/1,000 (4)

This is wearing:

A Double Chain Mail [24]
A Set of Greaves [3]
A Pair of Cesti [5]
A Heaume [5]
A Tower Shield [12]

This does make the chart look a little bit better though :)

mihalis March 13 2005 5:26 AM EST

I think even with a penalty that would drop your effective protection level to 0 (like you would have with a CBF), the effect would still be 4. It was the case on cb1, if someone with a CBF could try it here, that would be nice :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 14 2005 8:26 AM EST

Just fought someone using a CBF with protection trained on that minion. And the protection cast for (4).

:)

So anyone who uses a CBF really has no reason what so ever for not training a base Protection on that minion...

Todd March 14 2005 3:48 PM EST

heh, so... what DOES protection do? (or, _how_ does it work?)

someone[onabreak] March 14 2005 4:11 PM EST

"no reason what so ever for not training a base Protection on that minion..."

I can think of 2... (1) It's 6,000 xp and (2) Any decent Dispel Magic would cancel it anyway...

As for what it does, it reduces damage taken... I'm afraid I don't know anything more specific than that. It doesn't act like AC, and it doesn't seem to act like Endurance. It's apparently something completely different.

someone[onabreak] March 16 2005 8:40 PM EST

Man, it's a long way to 19!!!

Protection: 49,012 (18)

Also I no longer have the highest Protection in the game ;) So I need people to help me with the data! :) I have plotted points all the way up to 18, so anything higher than that is appreciated greatly.

Lumpy Koala March 16 2005 9:44 PM EST

So how much does a (18) protection help you? Any data on that?

someone[onabreak] March 16 2005 11:01 PM EST

My hypothesis, based on the experience costs involved, is that it's a straight-up percentage reduction. I'm also guessing that it's capped at around 25 to 30.

This is just a theory at this point, and I'm going to try some tests.

Todd March 16 2005 11:05 PM EST

Why isn't Jon chiming in on this one? It's a pretty simple question. And it's not easy to determine the answer by experimentation.

One of those things, I guess. He knows, we don't, yada yada yada.

[FireBreathing]Chicken March 16 2005 11:17 PM EST

shouldn't be that hard to figure out. If its linear, it is direct damage ignore. If its exponential, its most likely a percent. The graph looks kinda linear to me, but there could be some errors.

Todd March 16 2005 11:23 PM EST

Chicken, are you talking about upgrade costs, or damage reduction? Charting damage reduction is not as easy as it sounds. There is such a huge range that it would require a big heap of data.

I'm still a little puzzled over what criteria Jon uses when he decides when to be cryptic like "reduces damage", and when to spell it out for us.

someone[onabreak] March 16 2005 11:32 PM EST

I just wasted 40 BA on a small experiment.

My character Gothhenge attacked the character Nobody 40 times: 20 times without Protection trained, and 20 times with Protection (4) trained. I took out the highest and lowest values from each data set, then took the average of the Ranged damage and here's what I came up with.

No protection: 170.18
Protection (4): 165.18
Difference: -2.94%

I'll train it up to (5) soon and take another average. I would do the same with my big character but I don't want to take the PR hit :/

[FireBreathing]Chicken March 17 2005 1:37 AM EST

Todd, I was talking upgrade costs. Thats how I kinda figured out how endurance worked.

Anything which grows linearly should have a near linear effect, otherwise it would be unbalanced.

For example, if protection points went up linearly, and each point covered 0.5% of damage, it would become stupidly powerful.

Todd March 17 2005 6:26 AM EST

Chicken...

I am asking how it works, not how it gains levels, how it looks on a moonlit night, or whether or not it will help you hang a picture in your living room.

_How_ does it reduce damage? is it AC (applied after the normal AC - yes this is different), is it endurance? is it a % damage redux? There are many people who probably want to know, but we don't.

someone[onabreak] March 17 2005 9:27 AM EST

Just got a chatmail from Eternal saying:

Protection: 56,733 (19)

Eternal March 17 2005 1:38 PM EST

Protection: 58,260 (20)

Todd March 17 2005 2:12 PM EST

Ok, you guys can come out and stop snickering at me. I suppose I am just dumber than the rest of you who obviously have figured out how protection works. But by watching some of the data presented, I think I have got it!

Protection offers a % damage reduction equal to its level. Meaning, Protection of 20 offers 20% reduction of damage (after AC). Ta-Da! Am I right? Yeah, I know.. hit me with a clue stick.

Now, if this is right, let's look at a ToE wearing minion.

Let's assume he has an AC of 100 (would be higher, but he can't wear body armor or cloaks). Let's also assume Spid is there flinging arrows at him that would normally do 100,000 damage.

Case One:
1. 100 AC Blocks about 21% of the damage. Letting through 79,000 damage.
2. TOE kicks in and says "hold on bubba-loo" to that remaining damage. The neasty TOE reduces that 79,000 by 70%! (leaving 23,700 damage).
3. Protection says "hey.. you wanna piece of me?" and further reduces it by 20%. This leaves 18,960 damage.

Case Two:
Now.. if the 70% TOE blockage is based on the original 100,000, and not the post-AC damage, then he blocks even more. It would look like this:
1. 100AC blocks 21%, and TOE blocks 70%. Assuming they work at the same time, thats 91% blocking. Damage that gets through: 9,000
2. 9,000 is reduced to 7,200 by protection.

For those who are still paying attention, and wonder what AC is needed to eliminate damage when you have a TOE? Seems too simple, but its only 30%, so 142 AC and a TOE will block 100% of physical damage. Protection doesn't even matter at this point.

Now, the rational part of my brain raised its proverbial hand at this point and says.. "Jon is not stupid, he would not make it that easy to block 100% of physical damage" The irrational, side of me says "Oh yeah".

So, where did I screw up? I've just rambled myself into complete confusion. I'm going to make some jell-o.

Todd March 17 2005 2:27 PM EST

Ok, from the FAQs:
A: First damage reduction from AC is applied as described in Help. Next, damage may be further reduced by Protection; finally, by Endurance tattoos. Neither Protection nor Endurance translates into AC per se. Both Protection and Endurance apply to both magical and physical damage.



Ok, back to my guy TOE sporting Minion, and Spid's 100,000 damage.
1. AC reduces it by 21% to 79,000 damage
2. Protection reduces that by 20%, leaving 63,200 damage.
3. TOE blocks 70% of that, leaving 18,960 damage

100,000 becomes 18,960. Ouch.

Sevare March 17 2005 2:40 PM EST

You are talking about a 1 minion team right Todd? What about a 2 minion team, one to just wear the ToE and train protection and the second decked out in heavy tank armor? That would be far too powerful id think, espicially as tank suits get higher and higher ac. Maybe its not a full percent reduction per point, maybe half. Another thought ive had, maybe it reduces damage in perportion to damage recieved, kind of like an absorbing GA.

Todd March 17 2005 2:46 PM EST

The tank decked out in full AC would not be wearing a ToE

Sevare March 17 2005 3:03 PM EST

but doesnt a ToE effect the whole team not just the one wearing it?

LumpBot March 17 2005 3:13 PM EST

Only person wearing it I believe

someone[onabreak] March 17 2005 3:13 PM EST

ToE only affects the one wearing it.

Thanks for the (20) number. I assume that's pretty close to where you first get it. Hopefully I'll get 19 myself soon, and then I can update the chart :)

AdminShade March 17 2005 3:35 PM EST

and is this the same as in cb1?

mihalis March 17 2005 3:50 PM EST

Protection in cb1 was armor class (I think, in fact I'm pretty sure). It's not the same here.

Eternal March 17 2005 10:57 PM EST

Is your hypothetical Protection + ToE minion anybody, Todd? ;)

krasko March 17 2005 11:47 PM EST

Todd for the calculations u made i think u should have 300k lvl ToE to block 0.75 from the damage made.i am not sure but i think u should have 3 times bigger ToE that the damage made to block the max amount of it

QBsutekh137 March 18 2005 12:04 AM EST

I did not realize it was that easy to get to a Protection of 20. If it is a straight percentage, that seems like a lot.

BUT, since it applies AFTER AC, it is limited. Todd, your example is not that far fetched...something around 80% damage reduction with AC, ToE, and Protection combined. Let's look at that further.

AC will be hard to get a whole lot higher in your example, because the ToE forbids body and cloak armor.

Next, wearing the ToE means no other team member can have a tattoo, and the team as a whole gets no extra familiar.

Finally, Protection can be defeated by Dispel Magic.

Subsequently, all of the damage reduction layers have a weakness. That being said, for a single mage the ToE makes sense. However, good luck getting an AC anywhere NEAR 100 as a mage, unless you are prepared to get no armor magic enhancements and take huge penalties. Wearing boots of some sort, a corn, elven gloves, and no shield, you are talking a max AC of...what, 30-40?

Not to mention, there is a reason Jon applies Endurance LAST. It makes the ToE damage reduction the LEAST meaningful when trying for the holy grail of complete stoppage. Protection actually appears to be the mightiest layer here if it is in fact a straight percentage reduction. I will watch the Protection yield of the highest Protection minion with great interest, as well as anyone plotting the curve. Surely even letting it reach 50 at some moderately reasonable level would be a bit much if it were a straight %.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 18 2005 6:10 AM EST

pfft!

""no reason what so ever for not training a base Protection on that minion..."

I can think of 2... (1) It's 6,000 xp and (2) Any decent Dispel Magic would cancel it anyway.."

They're not reasons...

What's 6,000 xp on a minion that can only train HP and Str/Dex or a DD? Yes, and DM will defeat it but it's an added bonus for the teams that don't use DM and use AMF/EC against you.

;)

Hmmm. As ToE reduction comes last, and can get to 75% of damage taken should a ToE wearer forgo pumping AC and Protection and rely on thier ToE to reduce damage?

someone[onabreak] March 18 2005 8:58 AM EST

Woot! My protection just turned over:

Protection: 50,298 (19)

New graph coming soon :)

someone[onabreak] March 18 2005 9:36 AM EST

Behold the updated chart:

QBsutekh137 March 18 2005 10:48 AM EST

Gentleman Loser, your point is well made... Let the ToE hold back everything if it has a suitable level.

someone[onabreak] March 19 2005 7:35 PM EST

Eternal, since you have the highest Protection number in the game right now, I am relying on you to let me know each time you roll over to the next higher number :)

someone[onabreak] March 22 2005 3:54 PM EST

I'm catching up, Eternal! :)

Protection: 57,830 (20)

I'm now charting the derivative of the chart I had before. I think some of my numbers are off, though. So I need the lowest possible values for the following Protection effects (which will hopefully make the chart prettier):

7, 13, and 14.

Anyway, here's the chart. I'm going to guess, based on the data I have, that an effect of 21 will be attained between 66,000 and 67,000.

someone[onabreak] March 23 2005 3:04 PM EST

Protection: 1,100 (5)

Eternal March 23 2005 4:13 PM EST

Does anyone else find that their level of protection sometimes varies from the level that it's supposed to be?

Fighting Dragon Spooker I find my Protection level to go down a bit, but I'm not sure why.

someone[onabreak] March 23 2005 4:17 PM EST

He has Dispel Magic....

Eternal March 23 2005 4:20 PM EST

Duh :P I'll keep quiet until I move up to 21, then. ;)

Becoming March 23 2005 4:48 PM EST

Like I said before, there are numerous data points in this thread that are just plain wrong. Look at the graph if you need to "see" what I mean.

someone[onabreak] March 23 2005 9:04 PM EST

I know, that's why I need help to find the lowest possible levels required to gain each effect.

Eternal March 24 2005 1:40 PM EST

Just rolled over.

Protection: 66,408 (21)

someone[onabreak] March 24 2005 2:38 PM EST

sweet, so i was right :)

I'll punch the numbers into my spreadsheet tonight and make my next Nostradamus-caliber prediction :)

Manta March 24 2005 2:43 PM EST

How come that, instead of seeing the chart, I see the image of a bot check
(More specifically, "you fork")?

someone[onabreak] March 24 2005 2:50 PM EST

Whoops, my bad.

someone[onabreak] March 24 2005 4:32 PM EST

New chart is up. I predict level 22 to happen at around 76,000.

Eternal April 3 2005 3:13 PM EDT

Just graduated to 22.

Protection: 76,368 (22)

someone[onabreak] April 3 2005 6:25 PM EDT

Congratulations :) Thanks for the new data point, Eternal. I'll add it to the chart when I get a chance.
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