fight rewards & tattoos (in Changelog)

AdminJonathan March 8 2005 5:15 PM EST

Fight rewards now take into account your tattoo's level when deciding your rewards for a battle. If you're equipping an outsize tattoo, you'll need to fight up a lot or see low rewards.

The top 10 still don't suffer any penalty for not fighting up.

TheEverblacksky March 8 2005 5:18 PM EST

why the top 10?... But what does it cap at.... cause i just realized with my ToJ PR 10k and it's 43k it is incredibly horrible money... does the pr have to match the tattoo size?

TheEverblacksky March 8 2005 5:22 PM EST

nvm... i just reread it and understand it now :-p

GnuUzir March 8 2005 5:24 PM EST


That is all...

Yohan March 8 2005 5:25 PM EST

Well my uninformed, unprofessional opinion likes it.

QBJohnnywas March 8 2005 5:27 PM EST

If you're equipping a small tattoo for your pr - for instance if you've just bought a base one - will you see extra rewards?

WeaponX March 8 2005 5:27 PM EST

i dont understand why? so if i had i monster ELB you would do the same? not fair imo

TheEverblacksky March 8 2005 5:30 PM EST

I can sort of see why, because you get a whole extra minion that in some cases can be huge.

Lumpy Koala March 8 2005 5:31 PM EST

How much ratio of PR to level is considered outsized ?

QBJohnnywas March 8 2005 5:32 PM EST

It's also a much fairer way of nerfing the very large ToJ's. You don't lose the strength of the tattoo this way. Which is very good if you have spent a lot of time levelling it.

Bubo [DTC of Bubo] March 8 2005 5:33 PM EST

Just noticed something else:

"The house takes a 3% cut UP FRONT, plus $300 per day.
(Tattoos may not be rented out.) "

No more tattoo rentals.

AdminJonathan March 8 2005 5:33 PM EST

outsized is "larger than you would have if you had worn the same tattoo since you were a wee lad of PR 1."

obviously it's a sliding scale; if you're outsize by a little the effect is small as well.

WeaponX March 8 2005 5:34 PM EST

is it based on score or PR? if it's not PR it should be

Myonax March 8 2005 6:20 PM EST

Can you scale this a little with DD tattoos? With 20 health this wasn't as big of an issue with them.

Jiggys with their health this makes a lot of sense, but a bit less so with DD since they only get to fight for one round.

AdminJonathan March 8 2005 6:24 PM EST


Really if you're not training AS with a DD tattoo, well, if it works for you then you don't need an exception to this code, and if it doesn't, then stop. :)

Myonax March 8 2005 6:30 PM EST

Of course I have AS. But on a new team it gets dispelled or is too small to counter AMF backfire from one casting. To fight at the proper level for tattoo to get normal rewards I will only get in one round of fighting from the tattoo. A jiggy of the same level wouldn't have that issue.

Not asking for removal of penalty, just a reduction compared to a jiggy.

Stephen March 8 2005 7:29 PM EST

Then can we have an option to add clan members to our favourites list who are "a lot" higher? ;)

[EG] Almuric March 8 2005 7:30 PM EST

So, from the other changelog thread, Steveh is 300K PR and Jon says his ToJ would be at level 210K if he'd started with it at PR 1. So, if your ToJ is at 70% (or less) of your PR, you're getting normal rewards.

This is not intended as asking a question, just as documentation, as I'm sure people will be asking about this ad infinitum.

Todd March 8 2005 7:46 PM EST

"top 10" means top 10 characters, not the top 10 ToJs.

3D March 8 2005 8:08 PM EST

so when can i tell when my character is high enough with my toj so that fight rewards come back to normal for me?

3D March 8 2005 8:10 PM EST

oh nevermind

Mythology March 8 2005 8:28 PM EST

1) Will this work in converse, as in those who fight with either a lower Tattoo or none at all get a boost to rewards?
2) Could you please possibly add some kind of information somewhere of what PR = what Tattoo to use? Example, I buy a 150K PR character, what tattoo level should I get?
3) What also is the maximum penalty that people will recieve? % wise. For example, a 10K PR character beats a 1mil PR and score character because he owns a huge tattoo, will this person recieve less rewards than just beating someone of 10K PR without his tattoo on?
4) This is the pointless one, but please reconsider, I've thought *somthing* like this should be brought in, but do you not think this is a bit "railroading" going against the general freedom of choice in CB? I know people can / or not use a tattoo, but if they do, there is no point to go above / below an exact level...

Stephen March 8 2005 9:04 PM EST

2) 0.7 * PR (based on the nerf of ToJs above 210K and Steve_G's PR of 300K)

Ascent March 8 2005 9:10 PM EST

to quote the janitor from Scrubs.... "it's been years... why do you not get how this works?"

Whenever you're playing some part of the game, and think to yourself, "wow, this is almost too good to be true!" -- expect change in that area. IA's, COBF's, TOJ's, etc.... I'm sure there are a few dozen more that don't come to mind off the top of my head.

I'm happy about the change. Wacky me, I got my TOJ when they first came out, and haven't loaned or rented or however else you guys got those hellish leveled tattoos.... so I'm not affected at all, really. Just means I can't pump up 4 other minions with it... which I wasn't doing, anyway.

Just be glad he didn't decide that people gained too much XP from shared/loaned/rented tats and did a full rescale of XP of everyone....

Todd March 8 2005 9:11 PM EST

Oh man.. this really hurts those clans, erm, people who make new characters and use big tattoos on a repeating basis.

AdminJonathan March 8 2005 10:00 PM EST

For Myth:

1. Yes, but the effects won't be worth forgoing a tattoo for
2. Almuric already answered you
3. There is no penalty if you fight up "enough." If you are not fighting up, the penalty can be up to 100%.
4. No. This is really a bugfix; you could argue freedom of choice with rentals but not here.

Relic March 8 2005 10:52 PM EST

Can you please define fight up "enough"? I am fighting people that have the same PR as my ToJ roughly 1.5 and some almost 2 times my PR and am getting extremely poor gains.

sasquatchan March 8 2005 11:00 PM EST

Can this go both ways ? Fighting (and winning) against someone who has an oversized tattoo equipped gets you larger rewards ?

(Well, it's worth asking :)

And most of the discussion has been about TJK, but Jon's made no indication that this affects solely TJK.. Do other folks equip oversized flame/ice/steel/augmentation/endurance ?

And can we trust the generalization that a tattoo's level around 70% of your PR is "normal" and more than 70% starts inching one into the oversized realm ?

(and can I complain that the spellcheck doesn't accept correct possessives made with apostrophe-s ? I'm not a great speller or grammarian, but I try to get my possessives correct..)

[EG] Almuric March 8 2005 11:07 PM EST

Well Glory, from the Tattoo stats page, I'm guessing you've got a 200K lvl Tattoo. That means you should be fighting 285K PR people. I don't know how much lower than that you can go without getting reduced rewards, but that is the understanding I have of the changes made. I've been wrong before, though.

Yes, it sucks. Look at the bright side - with your reduced rewards there will eventually be plenty of people that far ahead of you. :p

AdminJonathan March 8 2005 11:33 PM EST

well, it's a little smarter than that -- if you have a 200k tattoo a 1K pr guy doesn't have to fight at the same level as a 100k pr person would to get no penalty.

Steve G March 9 2005 12:48 AM EST

just curious when the tattoo is being compared to PR, does it include untrained EXP as well? or should i train my xp to get better gains?

AdminJonathan March 9 2005 1:04 AM EST

CB has always used "virtual PR" for reward calculations.

(well, at least for a couple years now.)

Mythology March 9 2005 5:41 AM EST

Thank you for replies Jon, still think there's some far reaching impacts that havent been considered. By railroading I meant simply that if you deviate from having one character with it's correct sized tattoo you get penalized (both over and under). I don't just mean my clan's system of rotating characters, though we are the furthest up a certain creek lacking a system of propulsion.. This is what I meant, if you do any of the following it's out of sync.
(Over) :
*Sell your character (your tattoo becomes useless to you).
*Restart character as get fed up with it.
*Use character rotation.
*Fire a Minion.
*Change strategy (involving unlearning stats).
(Under) :
*Hire a Minion.
*Ever try another tattoo with the character, or without it.
*Switch to a different tattoo, then back again.

That's a pretty far reaching list... But so be it. The one issue I did want to raise in last point made on the issue I'd hope Jon would consider, shouldn't this change take into account the level of the opposition's tattoo? As in : I start a new character (sigh) and equip a brand new tattoo and never hire another minion, never do anything on the list above and fight exactly as you want us to, what if all my opposition isn't doing the same, wont I be left getting terrible rewards anyway because I have to fight below my level?

xDanELx March 9 2005 5:58 AM EST

Also, that means you have to find a ToJ that fits your character like a glove (70%?). And even that may not assure you that you are going to get the same rewards. I am hitting high level guys and I get crap rewards still (my ToJ is about 8k more than what I should have which is 90k). I have currently removed my ToJ as a strategy and just stuck to the same old CB1 strat. I am now back to my old reward gains without the ToJ. I think it has just seen its value plummet. :\

QBJohnnywas March 9 2005 6:05 AM EST

The value of the ToJ isn't the only thing that has changed with this. Potentially the value of CB2$ has just changed too. Unless everyone changes their strats to get their old rewards there will be less money going into the game. Unless of course the loss of rewards to some people is balanced by the gain in rewards that others may be getting.

AdminJonathan March 9 2005 8:57 AM EST

You're overreacting, Myth. You're still able to do just fine with an oversize tattoo; you just won't get extra rewards from CB thinking "wow, a 10k PR guy defeating 100k PR, he must be good!"

Cossadinha March 9 2005 12:07 PM EST

Great insight Johnywas! I cannot tell if it is right but it has logic.

And about having a reward boost for wearing a small tattoo, unless i misunderstood it, i disagree. So a person without a tattoo would have to have an even bigger reward boost.

xDanELx March 9 2005 12:09 PM EST

A person without a tattoo gets whatever normal rewards there is, not a boost. A person wearing an oversized tattoo will get lesser rewards, depending on the size of the tattoo and the level of people that he is fighting.

Cossadinha March 9 2005 12:21 PM EST

1) Will this work in converse, as in those who fight with either a lower Tattoo or none at all get a boost to rewards?
1. Yes, but the effects won't be worth forgoing a tattoo for

AdminJonathan March 9 2005 12:25 PM EST

and xDan continues his unbroken string of being wrong...

If the base reward (the reward someone with a "just right" tattoo gets) for beating someone of a given score is N, someone with a small tattoo or none will get more than N; someone with an oversize tattoo will get less.

Cossadinha March 9 2005 12:31 PM EST

oh I understand now. Thanks.

xDanELx March 9 2005 12:33 PM EST

Sigh... I guess thats my goal in CB2, to get as much wrongs as possible. Woohoo!!! Sorry Jon. Thanks for the correction.

Anyways, this is the result of my fights with a single person using a 90k ToJ which is over 70% my PR. I'm currently at 188,585 / 117,706.

Hejin (Isle of the Pirate King) 185,337 / 183,303

Without the ToJ:
You are awarded $312 and your Minions receive 37 exp each.
You are awarded $173 and your Minions receive 34 exp each.
You are awarded $277 and your Minions receive 36 exp each.

With the ToJ:
You are awarded $186 and your Minions receive 25 exp each.
You are awarded $165 and your Minions receive 23 exp each.
You are awarded $103 and your Minions receive 17 exp each.

AdminJonathan March 9 2005 12:35 PM EST

your point?

xDanELx March 9 2005 12:40 PM EST

Sorry, my thoughts was that without a tattoo was the base rewards. An oversize tattoo requires fighting up. Those fights shows that I am hitting up. Just still puzzled why the low returns. I guess it doesn't matter at the moment anyways. I'm working on fighting without the ToJ until I can get my ToJ level to 70% of my PR.

Yohan March 9 2005 12:50 PM EST

looks to me that your top set of data is without a tattoo which results in base reward N + bonus mentioned for fighting with undersized or no tat.

the base reward for a correctly ? sized tat would be somewhere in between.

xDanELx March 9 2005 12:52 PM EST

Yup, it does look that way. It is slightly bigger than my old rewards pre-ToJ adjustments. As I said, I didn't understand it well before so I assumed without tattoo is base. My bad.

AgentAia March 9 2005 2:03 PM EST

Also you should note that Jonathan is careful to say "just right" tattoo, not 70% of PR. The calculation of "just right" might involve more than a simple percentage of your PR. In particular, your score might be factored in.

AdminJonathan March 9 2005 2:07 PM EST

score is not a factor, only your PR and the tattoo's level.

I haven't done the math to see if 70% is always accurate, but it's probably pretty close.

dnnx March 9 2005 2:11 PM EST

How does Tattoo naming affect the rewards?
Will a just right tattoo that is named cause it to be over just right?
Or is it a just right+ ?
Well this at the same time might answer if the displayed level of named tattoo is already bonused or not.

Mythology March 9 2005 2:29 PM EST

Okay last post Jon, I promise :D

How about this for a compromise, use exactly the same penalty system you have put into effect at the moment, but double the experiene penalty, but have it only effect the tattoos and not the character. As in if the problem is oversized tattoos, then over time, they wont be oversized anymore... they would naturally and eventually reach that *perfect* level by themselves.

Plus, while using an oversized tattoo would give an inital benefit to $, you'd be losing out on the Net worth gain of using a normal sized one.

Just a thought :)

Duke March 9 2005 3:48 PM EST

We really need better explanation on virtual PR and the new TaT thing

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] March 9 2005 3:59 PM EST

Mythology, that's a very interesting idea.

The tattoo's RATE of leveling is proportionate in some way to the character wearing it. So, it will level slowly if is is outsized and eventually the character can 'catch up' to it. If it's a low level tattoo, it may even level faster for the char and reach that ideal 70% sweet spot.

I like it.

QBsutekh137 March 9 2005 4:02 PM EST

Duke, Virtual PR is simple. IT means that even if you have a lot of untrained experiences, CB treats you as if the experience has already been trained. In other words, Virtual PR is the sum total of experience on all a characters minions, whether it be trained into an attribute or still in the unspent EXP pool.

As for the "TaT" issue. what exactly is there left to explain?

Starseed^Lure March 10 2005 4:45 AM EST

I honestly believe that the penalty for an over level tattoo is too much. I just don't believe that my tattoo allows me to fight that far up. It's that simple. I actually came to look at the changelog because I was figuring that I was seeing about half my cash flow from last week.

I'd like to see the level of my tattoo somehow be able to auto-adjust to my group. Myths idea i decent. I dunno, maybe I'm completely off. I wish I had some hard math to back up my argument, but I hope you take me seriously anyway. Thanks, Jon.

QBJohnnywas March 10 2005 6:44 AM EST

It's only two days since this changelog but has anybody else noticed a difference in their overall performance? Has the change to fight rewards affected the way scoring is done? My score doesn't appear to drop like it used to; and those people on my fightlist appear to be more stable in score also. I know that last point will influence my score. If I'm fighting at a particular score-level I'll end up with that score but previously if I raised my score it would soon drop down to where I was before. That's not happening now.

HunterFrei March 10 2005 12:48 PM EST

Correct me if I'm wrong:

Fight rewards you receive are based on a percent of your PR to your tattoo level. IE; if your tattoo is X% above your PR you have a penalty of Y% to your fight rewards and if your tattoo is X% below your PR you have a Y% bonus to your fight rewards.

Now, assuming that it IS a percentage, wouldn't that mean that if you equipped a base tattoo to a 1 PR char it wouldn't receive ANY rewards, for the tattoo would be 2000% above your PR since the tattoo is level 20?

Just a thought.

mihalis March 10 2005 7:58 PM EST

I think your rewards are based on many things, including how your virtual PR compares to your opponent's score. Now your virtual PR includes (in some unknown way) the tattoo level. You have a penalty if you fight an opponent whose score is below your virtual PR. Removing your tattoo is like firing a minion: your PR would decrease accordingly. So if you can still beat the same opponent without the tattoo, you have extra rewards for fighting a high scoring character (compared to your lower virtual PR). If you have an oversized tattoo and fight opponents matching your (real) PR, you have a penalty because your virtual PR is way higher than your opponent's score.
In short:
virtual PR > opponent score => penalty,
virtual PR < opponent score => bonus.

This makes me wonder if there is an interest in having a tattoo now, since it is as if you had more XP on the minion wearing the tattoo, except you don't chose how the XP is spent.
Now, using the same logic, shouldn't there be a penalty for those wearing a pair of displacement boots? Shouldn't they have an increase of virtual PR that matches the evasion level from the boots? (Of course this won't happen, and I wouldn't want to. But why is there a penalty for tattoos, if not because there are a lot of them out there?)
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