A perfect Strat : may b (in General)


Mythology [The Knighthood] March 14 2005 6:34 PM EST

This is a strategy I've been thinking about for a while, but as it's going to be many many months until I can get the equipment required to run it how I want, I thought I'd throw it out there and hope either a camper's *friend*, USD spender or wise rental king saw it.

I call it TU "the untouchables"

2 minions :

1st Minion :
Trains : 100% Haste (maybe a small AMF around 10K ish to deflect base decays).
Equipment : Jig, Corn + EGs.

2nd Minion :
Trains : 25% hp, 75% Str. (Maybe prot to 50 level or so at high PR)
Equipment : MH - Exbow. Adam, Cmls, HoD, SC, Tulks, MS.

Facing tanks = Familiar is virtually untouchable (staggering dex), while the tank rivals single tanks (light and other) plus has a huge AC on top.

Facing mages = With a Jig's endurance plus easily 250 AC on the tank neither should fall and even if the familiar did the tank should be able to survive with devastating blows with it's leaching Morgul.

Just thought I'd post see if anyone would try it (or has) and thoughts upon it. As for the mages v tanks issue. Like "the house always wins, in the end" it is the same with tanks, in the old CB1 I was constantly telling new players a tank is no use to them and to use mages, as a new player tanks are like broken arrows (pointless). At the moment on CB2 we're all still new players, but as AC begins to rise, mages will begin to find their spells just dont have the kick they used to...

Adieu

Relic March 14 2005 6:38 PM EST

That strat is quite similar to my own. I use archery instead of the exbow, and a ToE mainly because my ToJ is much too high lvl now. Good strat though Myth.

QBRanger March 14 2005 6:39 PM EST

One response.

A +56 COBF.

Relic March 14 2005 6:42 PM EST

Another thing which is quite useful and I think underused is VA. You could put that on your first minion as well.

QBRanger March 14 2005 6:54 PM EST

Back to my origional response.

Vs a high level COBF, the tattoo dies in 2-3 rounds. Then any mages spells just pound on your tank/enchanter. True, you may have a cobf on your tank, but the "protection" your talking about from the Tat will be lost.

Also, any enemy Fireballs will do lots of damage to your tank and enchanter, not to mention COC's. The familiar protecting your minion will not work vs those spells, however, it will disapate some of the damage by being a 3rd minion.

Nightmare [NewNightmares] March 14 2005 7:07 PM EST

7.

The number of CoBF above +30. Everyone has got to stop looking at the problems. Every strat will have some sort of counter, even a perfect one. Also ranger, the AC will prevent a good deal of the damage the tank would take (250 AC would average 50% damage reduction).

The strat seems good, but would require quite a bit of investment capital to make it work.

QBRanger March 14 2005 7:22 PM EST

But if you look at the amount of money to invest in the armor for the tanks as well as a MH, you can easily get a cobf and upgrade it.

Im just mentioning this since the title of the thread is "perfect strat"

Just my 2 pennies

Becoming March 14 2005 7:49 PM EST

Not everyone wants to spend hundreds of USD on this game, ranger.

mihalis March 14 2005 8:02 PM EST

My 2 pennies: if you want to play the DX card, you might want an Axbow instead of an Exbow. Why would you use an exbow to reduce your opponent's ST if you plan on not being hit?

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] March 14 2005 8:13 PM EST

if you dont expect the toj to be hit anyway why make the gap bigger with an ax

anyway I hope you're right myth, because right now im getting killed by mages and I have bigger amf than haste, ac is only 130 tho.

P.S are you serious here or just taking the mick out of me.

QBsutekh137 March 14 2005 8:25 PM EST

First off, "staggering dexterity" is not enough to always avoid that first hit. You will still get hit by other tanks. Even tanks with huge dex disparities and massive DBs in CB1 would still take first hits quite often. Doubles, on the other hand, will be quite rare.

Magic will still wreak havoc with this. Even with high AC, a large MM not dulled by AMF will be very painful.

You are also disregarding ToAs. Other tanks will possess the ability to hit you. A ToA is like a built in Haste minion. Almost exactly, in fact. A ToA augments dexterity and strength to around 60-65% of its level, if I am not mistaken. Haste applies at 65-70% of its level, again, if I am not in error. See my point?

And Protection to level 50? I am betting that is well-nigh impossible here in CB2 if Protection is something like a percentage off damage. No way Jonathan is going to allow a 50% reduction in remaining damage on an enchantment (even with the DM counter).

Great tank strategy, just take the "uns" and "nons" out of there. Nothing is absolute. I repeat, nothing. And that parts that aren't accounted for by your strategy generally hurt. A lot. *smile*

QBRanger March 14 2005 8:32 PM EST

Ah, Becoming:

Im not saying spend money.

If you carefully look at my post I'm saying the following:

To get your AC over 200, youll need lots of cb cash. For that cash I would get a cobf and upgrade it. This can be done quickly (as I have done), or over time (as others do). For you to get Adam, SC, Tulks, CML, HOD, and MS alone will be over 8 million cb2. For all that you can get a cobf for 3 million and upgrade it to +50. Thats what i am saying. Then a tank with plenty of HP, sort of a Hypnotoad strat, will kill you (likely).

This is absolutely zero, nothing, nada, ziltch, with me spending or not spending real money on the game.


MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] March 14 2005 9:05 PM EST

"A perfect Strat : may b" Kind of a weak attempt at a perfect strat ;P

Weaknesses: Chars with DM and a tank (1 minion, 4 minions? Doesn't matter). CoBF. Mages, no 10k AMF will win it for you, AC+HP is really meaningless as AC can do very little to DD and as for HP, single CoC mage would drop you in 3 rounds of melee without any problems (doesn't matter what your HP is, and as it is your HP wont be that great anyway). Any other CoC based char would still destroy you. Decay, only needs to be 30k or so and it'll hit very hard.

Mythology [The Knighthood] March 14 2005 9:20 PM EST

I dont have time to answer properly as the sandman is calling me quite loudly. But, I will say most of these answers are pretty poor. Saying just "this will beat you" gets no where, think the strat out.

Example : CoC, on what? single mage? Wearing what? Or just "CoBF" on what? And who has the tat?

Demonstration : CoC Mage Wearing a Toe.
Ranged : Takes full whack from exbow probably 2 or 3 hits. Then in 3rd round gets hit again with full force. ToE will reduce all the hits but will make it to melee.

Melee : CoC fires, spread between 3 targets already at 33% strength, Tank AC knocks off 40% of that plus the Jigs ToE soaks some up also. Retal : Familiar hits the mage for probably 2 full whacks and the tank also, soaking up 20% of hps taken off twice.

At this point the tank is going to be healthier than at the start of the battle and I'd expect the mage to be near death, and if not then so much exp into hps that it's CoC is very weak.

So please, give examples... I mean DM is hardly a weakness when facing a 1 minion character, if you face 1 minion with DM on it would have to put 60% of it's exp just into DM and anything else it uses is going to be so poor in comparison it really does not matter.

Anyway, adieu

I finally see March 14 2005 9:21 PM EST

I'm going to have to go with Chet on this one. Staggering haste and massive (MASSIVE) Db's will usually result in opponents in your PR area missing every shot in melee. *However* The first hit of melee often connects, perhaps to balance the power of massive dbs+haste, not to mention ranged combat in which avoiding shots (even if the opponent is only getting one off) is nigh impossible.

[FireBreathing]Chicken March 14 2005 9:48 PM EST

250 AC? at this point in the game, why not just get a bow 10 times bigger than the current largest weapon in the game, and pawn everybody in range.

And what do you plan to do against opposing exbows? I thought we concluded that single tank-based strats were dead in CB1.

QBsutekh137 March 14 2005 9:49 PM EST

Myth, I don't have to play it out blow by blow when I know basics.

A Haste minion providing all dexterity is extremely weak. You do know that Haste does not deliver full payload, right? I will be generous and say it delivers 70% its level. Let's do math!

Start with two minions, meaning the Haste enchanter is half the team's experience. Call the teams total experience E. So, the Haste enchanter will yield dexterity of 0.5 times 0.7 = 0.35 = 35% of E of the team's experience in dexterity (yes, for both minions).

Now, consider a single tank training HP/STR/DEX equally. This will mean each attribute gets 33% of E. Let's say it is a tank who actually knows what he is doing, so he trains it 35/30/35. Hey! He now matches your tank! Crank up the dexterity a bit more, and he can best the enchanter and the tank (not that the enchanter puts up much of a struggle, mind you.

Why is your tank unable to be hit in this case? He doesn't even have DBs. Every plus on a single tank's weapons are another notch in the proverbial coffin for your team.

Jonathan was careful when he developed the enchantments. There is a reason a pure Haste enchanter does not necessarily pay as a "full and only" means of dexterity.

Put a ToA on your tank, and now you are talking. *smile*

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] March 14 2005 9:53 PM EST

Ok,

DM, 1 minion: HP/ST/DX + Archery and DM.
Equip: DBs, ToA, Elbow, and a BNE.
HP: 30%
DM: 50%
ST/DX: ToA (and they both still beat your's... possibly not the tank's ST, but what's it matter if the tank can't hit?)
Archery: 20% (am too poor with numbers to figure out how much it'd need for full effect, but 20% is far more than enough)

[FireBreathing]Chicken March 14 2005 9:54 PM EST

and seeing as how 250 AC now is like 370 AC back than, I'd say you're pretty vulnerable to FB.

Magic Missile is also a major weakness.

Definetly not a perfect strat. I recommend doing a lot more testing.

[FireBreathing]Chicken March 14 2005 9:59 PM EST

Chet, Haste is rather underrated. Consider the heavy armor penalties other tanks would have to bypass if they trained dex.

On another note, the ToJ may seem untouchable as of now, but remember that sharp curve on UC? ToJ's UC effect level will eventually come to a near stop, as will its training of evasion bonus. One Todd comes up with another +200 weapon, you're ToJ will be picked off in the first round.

[FireBreathing]Chicken March 14 2005 10:16 PM EST

But than again, it could be a light tank. >:)

Gawd I love those things. (light tanks)

As for a perfect strat, what about that fun strat I came up with before? :)

The enchanted decay/CoC archers.

[FireBreathing]Chicken March 14 2005 10:21 PM EST

one more thing..
"At the moment on CB2 we're all still new players, but as AC begins to rise, mages will begin to find their spells just dont have the kick they used to... "

Wouldn't spells become more and more effective as AC increases? As physical damage approaches 0 (370 AC), magic damage approaches some 50%ish number, depending on the type of armor.

[FireBreathing]Chicken March 14 2005 10:25 PM EST

besides, any strat without Cloak of Balrog should be re-considered. Observe how the 4 of the top 5 players have at least one CoBF.

QBsutekh137 March 15 2005 1:37 AM EST

Chicken, you might want to check out my retired character RedDwarf on CB1. I think Haste is rather important, evidently.

In this application, however, it is folly. If you can find fault with my math, by all means point it out. Yes, Myth's idea allows him to go heavy on the AC while still maintaining decent dexterity. Been there, done that. Rimmer had an AC north of 300 and RedDwarf had the largest Haste in the game (by a lot). Spid still owned.

Then later, Spid did the AC and Haste thing even better.

Is everyone's memory really that short? *sigh*

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 15 2005 2:23 AM EST

As for Dex + Evasion (if it hasn't changed from CB1...) didn't Jon say that with an evasion of 1 point higher than your opponents pth and a large enough dex you become unhittable?

QBsutekh137 March 15 2005 2:29 AM EST

"Large enough" being key. You need a huge dexterity differential to make that first hit miss a substantial portion of the time.

It is a good strategy, no doubt. It just takes a huge PR to be unhittable. And the lack of AMF gives pause.

Nightmare [NewNightmares] March 15 2005 2:34 AM EST

AMF isn't 100% necessary if you hit hard enough with seekers. With 75% of the xp going into STr with the tank, with a x40 he should do enough damage to hurt the single mages with and without ToEs*

*The ToEs this strat would hurt at a similar PR would be the ones considered non-oversized before the change, not the huge ones

salt3d March 15 2005 2:52 AM EST

Lisa: Look, there's only one way to settle this. Rock-paper-scissors.
Lisa's brain: Poor, predictable Bart. Always takes rock.
Bart's brain: Good ol' rock. Nothin' beats that!
Bart: Rock!
Lisa: Paper.
Bart: D'oh!

Mythology [The Knighthood] March 15 2005 6:18 AM EST



250 AC? at this point in the game, why not just get a bow 10 times bigger than the current largest weapon in the game, and pawn everybody in range. And what do you plan to do against opposing exbows? I thought we concluded that single tank-based strats were dead in CB1. Chicken

Im not going to go into dmg V AC, lets just say AC wins in the long run, opposing exbows? Dodge the bolts with dex... Or lose str like the other guy is... hardly destroys the whole strat... Single tanks? Did you even read this strat?

A Haste minion providing all dexterity is extremely weak. You do know that Haste does not deliver full payload, right? I will be generous and say it delivers 70% its level. Let's do math! etc...

Erm, pretty simple answer to your question, include the Jig in your equation... I never said the tank was un-hittable, but the Familiar will have as said, staggering amounts of dex... Also not sure why you say "generous" if you know the basics then you know the % that haste delivers, it isnt random... 70% x2 = 140%, therefore haste is more effective exp wise than training just dex on a tank...

Chuckles DM casting single tank

I'd like to see how a single tank does that uses 50% of it's exp in DM I really would :p It would lose against any other strat in the game...

Chicken waffles, but in particular : Wouldn't spells become more and more effective as AC increases? As physical damage approaches 0 (370 AC), magic damage approaches some 50%ish number, depending on the type of armor

When you have 5mil to spend on AC upgrades and it buys you extra point on your mage and 30 extra on your tank you will soon realise what I'm talking about....

QBsutekh137 March 15 2005 6:33 AM EST

70% is generous in that I am rounding up. Haste delivers around 2/3rds its level. It probably gets to around 70% if the enchanter is fully decked-out with magic gear.

Yes, the ToJ would be pretty tough to hit. So that is a good point. I thought your main focus was on the minion-based tank, so that is what I was referring to. Yes, the Haste applies to all, but that doesn't mean it's yield is 70% x N where N is the number of team "members" (minions plus tattoo). For example, the huge dex on the enchanter is worthless because it has no HP. The enchant is only as good as the vessels it fills.

Like my most recent post says, it is a fine idea. The only thing I was trying to say is that becoming truly "untouchable" is very difficult, and that the high dexterity route has been used before. It does work. It just isn't necessarily "perfect". The only way to find out is to try it. Once you do that, the harsh reality steps in and says your strategy may be great, but some crazy old geezer who wakes in the middle of the night to burn BA is probably still going to best it eventually. *smile*

The only "perfect" strategy (in lieu of lots of $$$) is a high rate of BA usage along with longevity.

Mythology [The Knighthood] March 15 2005 6:49 AM EST

agreed, though I was using N as the tank and the familiar, if the enchanter was also included it'd be Nx3 (which I wasn't).

I've always said above alll strats the best is one you enjoy playing because that leads to longevity and higher ba use :)

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] March 15 2005 7:09 AM EST

"Chuckles DM casting single tank

I'd like to see how a single tank does that uses 50% of it's exp in DM I really would :p It would lose against any other strat in the game... "

Grrrr, I wasn't saying it was a good strat ;P I was saying your strat isn't unbeatable (although it is good, it's not "A Perfect Strat").

Mythology [The Knighthood] March 15 2005 7:14 AM EST

I know, but whats the point in comparing a strategy to one that is almost unsuable? I'm still not sure it would beat it anyway, the DM still wouldnt knock off all the haste effect, at least 20% of it would still cast, plus you'd have a much more lasting familiar (Endurance) facing a tank that has trouble hitting it and has no AC.

QBsutekh137 March 15 2005 10:03 AM EST

Yes, that Haste would make that ToJ quite a slippery sucker...

By the way, check out the character Czech Forger (used to be Forg Killa). Very much like your idea, but with an AMF enchanter thrown in the middle and a CBF on the tank. A very tough team.

GnuUzir March 15 2005 10:49 AM EST

I have a very similar set up going on (Minus the mad AC you have sketched out), but with and Axbow instead of Exbow, to take care of those nasty double hitting familiars...

And a little GS to help damage along...

[FireBreathing]Chicken March 16 2005 12:02 AM EST

"Chicken waffles, but in particular : Wouldn't spells become more and more effective as AC increases? As physical damage approaches 0 (370 AC), magic damage approaches some 50%ish number, depending on the type of armor

When you have 5mil to spend on AC upgrades and it buys you extra point on your mage and 30 extra on your tank you will soon realise what I'm talking about...."

back to the AC thing, when you said AC would take the 'kick' out of mages, I wondered how AC would defend you against magic anymore than it would defend you against bows. A heavy tank with 250 AC has onlly roughly an effective 180 AC against magic.
How could you possibly defeat the huge FB mages we have whom finish most battles off in ranged or the first round of melee.

[FireBreathing]Chicken March 16 2005 12:24 AM EST

All the exp/effort stuffed into the Jig's dex is a waste for the following reasons.
1. Its Evasion ability is capped at around 20, considering the UC formula here is similar to that from CB1. Being, UC capped at around 60, and UC giving only a 33% of its level as part of an evasion bonus. Therefore, the easiest way to defeat a Jig is not via dexterity, but with a higher '+' enchantment.
2. Magic Missile
3. Fireball
4. CoBF
5. GA (pft)

In conclusion, you might as well forget the jig and slap on a ToA/ToE

I used this high dex+evasion+haste stuff all through CB1, and you're dex needed to be nearly double that of you're opponents in order for them to not hit at all.

[FireBreathing]Chicken March 16 2005 12:25 AM EST

By the ways Chet, another plus to casting on dex is its ability to totally screw up axbow strats. -_- As i figured out the hard way.

salt3d March 16 2005 1:25 AM EST

The ToJ familiar trains Evasion as well as Unarmed Combat.

[FireBreathing]Chicken March 16 2005 2:39 AM EST

how.. is that possible. anyways, even if it were possible, evasion was capped at around 40ish. Thus, why I nearly gave-up on the whole evasion/dex strat until DBs were modified.
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