ToA and Dx/Str Enhancing Armor (in General)
April 7 2005 2:16 PM EDT
I think it should be changed so that any str/dx enhancing armor should also enhance a Tattoo of Augmentation.
My reasons are pretty simple, BoM, TG, Elven Boots, and other various armors are pretty useless to many ToA users and should not be.
Unlike GS and Haste a ToA's enhancements are applied not during battle but all the time. So it'd only make sense that the armor worn OVER the tattoo would help the tattoo as well. AS, haste, and GS effect ToJ so why shouldn't armors effect ToA?
would help if i could use my TSA along with my ToA...lol
and yea, i started to raise the STR on my CoC mage with ToA to be able to raise, the STR more with BoM when i get it.
April 7 2005 3:08 PM EDT
I'm not 100% sure what you're saying smallpaul1 but I'm glad you agree =D
STR/DEX boosting gear isn't useless with a ToA. Well, maybe if you are working a CoC archer, but as a tank, you are still going to have to raise some str and dex to keep up with the other ToA tanks. Also, the EDs don't affect a ToJ/F/I/S, just the minion it puts on the field. There's a big difference between that and a ToA.
Spaceman, have you ever heard of a game called rifts? It is based in the Palladium universe of books. Its a role playing game, when I was a kid me and my friends tried to play rifts. We had a ton of fun making characters to play, but when it came time to play the game, it was another story. Too complex and the game system just wasn't that fun. Anyways, in rifts there was a magic tattoo man, he couldn't wear armor because it would hinder his ability to USE his tattoos.
The armor that Jon has so graciously allowed us to wear while equipping a tattoo does not cover our tattoos. Actually, in reality, a tattooed man would want to use practically no armor in order to gain full flexibility in using his tattoos. Granted in Rifts a tattooed man could have multiple tattoos.
Multiple tattoos? Imagine a tank equipped with a ToE and a ToA, wielding a MH and Elb and also wearing a CoBF and a ToF ^__^. Now that's something I wish I could see :)
April 7 2005 9:16 PM EDT
Verifex I really don't think your answer or reply is even remotely helpful. So the armor doesn't cover the tattoo correct? Well CoBF doesn't cover your entire body so how do the flames protect every inch of you. Tulka Gauntlets only cover your hands, but if it was in correct physics you still couldn't lift a sword, you just had amazing gripping power. I am merely stating that it isn't harmful to the game for this change. To counter the armors enhancements, a similar ToA user could equip all AC armor thus taking in that extra damage from the enhanced STR.
As for Nightmare's comment. Look at most people's Str and Dex if they have a ToA. It is usually less than normal non-ToA users.
I'm just saying that since this armor effects you, wouldn't it makes sense to affect the ink engraved in your body?
Spaceman you have a very valid point. Tattoo's attributes should be factored in BEFORE the added benefits of equipped armor. That does make sense to me.
April 7 2005 9:25 PM EDT
Thanks Barron, I appreciate your opinion. This isn't a revolutionary change or a request for a Mage Staff =P
April 7 2005 9:26 PM EDT
If your tattoo would be effected by a set of EB, why wouldn't my EG's be effected by my EB's? They're both armor, if your gonna have armor effect an armor effectiveness, then your gonna really screw things up.
A ToA does not give you more permanant strength, it augments the strength you already have. The bonus it adds is added to what you've already got without it, same as every other item. The same as EB's do not effect your post TSA's str, neither should they effect your post ToA str. It's a bonus, and bonus do not effect bonuses.
April 7 2005 9:27 PM EDT
Undertow, I think Barron quoted it best to your question.
April 7 2005 9:31 PM EDT
I understood exactly what you meant. I just don't like the change, I think it's a bad one. No other enhancement item in the game works off something other than your base stats, why should the ToA be different?
what about the way AC/Protection/Endurance works?
April 7 2005 9:34 PM EDT
Of course Undertow, because that's what you do best. Go from post to post bashing nearly every idea or suggestion. Thank you for your input, but you have to admit this does make sense, if we don't do something about how tattoos function, then everyone with a ToA will be forced with the same strat. I always took this game as a strategy game, not a cookie-cutter character game.
April 7 2005 9:38 PM EDT
I agree with Undertow. Tattoos are armor, and armor bonuses shouldn't affect armor. If you have Tulka's, a BoM and TSA, how do you figure strength? You have to treat tattoos as armor.
A tattoo is more permanent than other armor. You incur a penalty when you remove a tattoo, not with other armors. A tattoo is 'part' of you. Like a bionic chip i guess. Add a strength enhancing item and it enhances your biologic strength which the tattoo has enhanced.
April 7 2005 9:43 PM EDT
fishead...the other armors add a % of st or dx. it doesn't add a direct value of either
April 7 2005 9:46 PM EDT
Ok, fine, you want an example of armor effecting and thus increasing other armor? Beleg Gloves. If I have a ToA then my Str and Dex are much higher thus making me do more damage. Belegs grant better archery which is I believe 15% extra damage. So now my armor is making my BG more effective, not my base trained anything.
April 7 2005 9:46 PM EDT
It seems to me that a ToA is already a DX and ST bonus. Be careful what you ask for. Imagine going up against a tank that trains DX with a ToA, and EB's.
April 7 2005 9:48 PM EDT
Hey Spaceman, didn't realize this had gotten personal. I can't help it if you came up with a crappy idea. Excuse me if I LIKE the way CB is now.
And I understand the way Enderance AC and Protection stacks now, I just don't think this is the same.
This is my view on how the things work:
You strap on a tattoo of augmentation, and your surrounded by stereotypical weird mystical energy, making your muscles buldge and stuff. You take it off, energyness goes away, so do the muscles. The only reason your stronger is the magical nature of the tattoo.
Why should other str enhancing equipment (I keep saying strength, I mean either.) Mess with the magical energy? Why would an item that ups your strength up the MAGICAL strength of the tattoo. Why does it make the tattoos effect over you more powerful?
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe Jon thought that a ToA was more like instant "been to the gym for the last year 3 times a day" and that it's supposed to be an increase to your natural strength. I dought it. And I think it's a bad idea.
April 7 2005 9:51 PM EDT
Belgs give you archery.... a skill.
Relating that to this is retarded. It makes NO SENSE. It doesn't up a stat at all. It doesn't ADD a step to the bonus giving process, it applies the bonus (I'd assume) at the same time as your TSA and Tulks and everything else, TO ARCHERY. Not a stat.
April 7 2005 9:54 PM EDT
Slurpz- thats kind of my point. They all add a percentage of the trained stat, not the stat after enhancement. If I put my TSA on first and get 10%, then my Tulka's and get 8% on top of my enhanced stat (armor bonus affecting armor), or go the other direction my final strength changes.
Barron- I get your point, but still within CB a tattoo is armor and should be treated as armor.
April 7 2005 9:55 PM EDT
For Boodiggity: I respect your statement but Tattoo'd Dude all ready acomplished that witha huge Haste and a ToJ. thus all ready one of the most fearsome Dex in the game.
For Undertow: I think the main reason you disagree is because this has no benifit towards you. You don't have a ToA thus not knowing how frustrating it is have a tank with super expensive but useless armor.
Also, you want CB2 to stay like this? A never changing game? You do realize this is CB2 not 1. And there are CHANGE MONTHS. The vast majority of online games change to keep up with gameplay and ideas. So keep dreaming.
April 7 2005 9:57 PM EDT
Undertow, calm down bud. Belegs do not add to archery. I put some on when my archery was .99, it was still .99 it adds 15% damage to archery or something of the sort.
April 7 2005 9:59 PM EDT
Tattoos are not "just another armor" you can play the game successfully with any 1 armor removed except tattoos. And what other armor gives you a penalty or loses ranks when unequiped?
April 7 2005 10:00 PM EDT
I never said I wouldn't except changes, but I know a retarded change when I see one. The reason you only ever see me shoot down ideas is because it makes a whole lot more sense to me to tell someone WHY they are wrong than to spam a thread with "Great idea" over and over and over. I never comment on ideas I like.
And I could give an 87 buick as to whether the change effects me or not. My strat stinks vs tanks and this change will.... make it continue to stink vs tanks? This makes things worse for me how?
Don't pretend to read my mind moron.
April 7 2005 10:03 PM EDT
Now you resort to name calling? And you only post negative responses? Wow, maybe I'm arguing with the wrong CB player. It might be more helpful for "older" players to contribute thoughts. But then again, I'm just a moron right?
April 7 2005 10:06 PM EDT
RIFTS rules, characters take forever to make and mixing rules books makes for hugely unbalanced games. Luckily I'm the master of min-maxing characters. If only I could apply that to CB...
Nobody can stop the Jodo Strike of a Sohai Warrior Monk.
April 7 2005 10:06 PM EDT
Hey man, you started it.
And no, I didn't say I only post negative comments, I only post comments to ideas that I don't like. Positive critisism.
April 7 2005 10:09 PM EDT
"I only post comments to ideas that I don't like. Positive critisism."
They have a phrase for that, pessimist.
And you think "Bud" is a bad name? And I started it? lol, this is a kid argument now.
April 7 2005 10:18 PM EDT
Haste and GS affects ToA wearers as well.
And no, ToA enhancement is strictly Tattoo based. Penalty / enhancement from armour is strictly minion based. That's simple and balanced the way it is now.
April 7 2005 10:19 PM EDT
I don't call "Bud" a bad name, but this:
"Of course Undertow, because that's what you do best. Go from post to post bashing nearly every idea or suggestion."
was highly uncalled for. I took great offense to it.
The fact is I see thread after thread spammed with:
"That's a great idea!"
"I hope Jon does this!"
When I see that, I stop and think "what will my posting really add to this?" and the answer is not much that hasn't already been said.
But when I find an idea that I don't like, and the reason that I don't like it hasn't already been mentioned, I post.
I'm not a pessimist, I'm just not into creating useless posts.
April 7 2005 10:22 PM EDT
Then stay out of my thread!! Stop making useless posts on my thread. You haven't actually contributed a valid argument for somet time now. You don't like what I said? Then stop bashing my thread.
April 7 2005 10:24 PM EDT
Okay, so now anyone who thinks you've got a bad idea should just leave... now who's being the baby?
April 7 2005 10:27 PM EDT
Look, you are just getting yourself deeper in water. I have discredited all your reasons on why you think this idea is bad. The last 3 or 4 posts are just spam. I don't want spam. Jon won't read this if it's full of spam
April 7 2005 10:36 PM EDT
You still haven't discredited my responses. Bonuses shouldn't effect bonuses, hasn't been discredited.
tattoos are armor. TSA's are armor.
The tattoo give a bonus to your stats, TSA's give a bonus to your stats.
Other stat boosting equipment doesn't up stats post ToA, other stat boosting equipment doesn't up stats post TSA.
Tattoos of AUGMENTATION, augment your stats, TSA's augment your stats.
Case closed, they're the same.
April 7 2005 10:38 PM EDT
For answers to ALL of those questions, please read the above thread you have destroyed with your posts. They are chalked full of justified answers that you have yet to explain or disprove ;)
Yes this could be an upside for the ToA, but there already is an upside to this, Major DX penalties have really no effect cuz it only takes the % off of the original DX instead of the tattoo effect.
April 7 2005 11:31 PM EDT
smallpaul1 you are perfectly right, all penalties to such armor should apply. It just bugs me that ToA adds to PR but we can't get benifits from the armor as if it was real trained exp.
April 7 2005 11:42 PM EDT
Okay, now when PR is thrown in THAT makes sense. I still don't think that the magical bonus provided by a tat and the magical bonus provided by another piece of armor should have anything to do with eachother, but if it's gonna effect pr like actual expierance trained, then... well.. maybe.
April 7 2005 11:44 PM EDT
Yeah, it is a bit skewy there undertow. I do wish that something if not my suggestion is made. Because it is just awkward to get around for us ToA tanks. I don't want to rely on high AC armor, but it leaves me little choice.
Like the DD tatoos got the huge help of equipping it on an Enchanter makes it so the minion after can wear armor and still have the tattoo fight before it, i think the ToA deserves body armor or something to help it in that area like DD tattoos did.
>.> I'm rambling.
April 7 2005 11:47 PM EDT
A better change, IMHO, would be to lower the amount that a ToA ups your pr based off the fact that it is NOT real strength and dex, but a bonus.
April 7 2005 11:50 PM EDT
Now there is an idea, but should we really make tattoos more confusing? I figured if we take the penalties and the enhancements, I'd be sufficed. It is really if Jon is even up to the challenge.
This would benefit.. You
I'm sure other ToA users have already bought and upgraded heavy armor, based upon the very fact that ToA is not affected by armor penalties. Why should Jon change the game and force a disadvantage upon the more thoughtful ToA users who thought about what armor would fit their strategy best. Your poor armor choice was your decision, don't try to change the game just to benefit yourself because it won't happen.
And don't take things too personally in this game. Undertow and I are just making sure Jon sees both sides of every suggestion before making a move.
What if he's a little tired one day and starts programming without thinking stuff through?
April 7 2005 11:55 PM EDT
I must ask how this benefits me in any way? I am selling both my Tulkas and BoM at the current moment. By Saturday I personally will own absolutely no armor of the type ;)
Also, this was not choice of armor, I could easily sell one of those 2 items and buy and HoD and CML with cash to spare.
Whatever, I really don't care who gets the advantage, but this change would achieve nothing. The people who thought it through, and bought/upgraded the proper heavy armor will be put at a disadvantage. Its like playing a game of tic tac toe and than saying "first person to get 3 in a row loses" halfway into the game.
So the morale of the story is, "Life is good, don't change anything which doesn't need to be changed."
and you could always just not pull back on selling the items if for some reason Jon made the change...
BUT, I really don't care who gets the advantage. ;)
April 8 2005 12:06 AM EDT
Chicken, I think you are far from the truth, I all ready stated that a high AC could counter this change because it can absorb the damage that the extra Str deals. Also buying these enhancing armors lower their AC thus allowing them to die faster.
Also that comment on prediction is silly, who predicted LToJ would be deleted or AIs in CB1? Or how about...predicting CB2? Was it fair to Todd and Tez that CB2 be created? The game isn't fair, it's jon's world. And this idea would balance out tattoos. Why must I be forced with only one type of strat if I choose ToA?
April 8 2005 12:08 AM EDT
Jon wouldn't make the change until next month, it's the begining of April. I doubt I could hold selling 2 items for a month.
Spaceman. I'm saying that a person who bought already bought the heavy penalty armor would be at a disadvantage. They would be affected more by the penalties if this change were ever to occur.
AIs? IAs were deleted on CB1 because they were overpowered. LToJs were deleted because.. i dunno. look it up. CoC damage was increased because it would balance magic. I don't understand how this change would in any way balance the tattoo.
Anyways, since You asked for a cleaner post, and arguing on a forum is completely fruitless, I will forfeit this arguement and give you the pat on the back you so desire.
April 8 2005 3:22 AM EDT
Chicken does have a point there. If you make ToA bonuses work like regular stats, suddenly penalties from heavy armor go into effect as well. Then you ruined every other ToA users strat because you wanted yours to work.
Holy crap, the things you guys "take and run with" really boggles the mind. A ToA is a awesome tattoo used properly. You want body armor to be used in addition to it? Are you crazy? Tanks don't take much to dominate in a fight. And that would give them the insane advantage.
The way it is now is good, if you want a tank with massive AC and bonus armor, then you'll have to wait until you can afford it all. If you want a character with a ToA tat and a big weapon, then you don't get the added bonus of getting large armor as well.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. ;)
April 8 2005 4:04 AM EDT
Verifex, your way off, they don't want body armor.
They want the bonus to stats from non-tat slot armor to apply to post tattoo stats.
Make a little more stats?
wow, I take a vicodin and sleep for a night, and this thread gets huge :-P
Spaceman, a ToA IS just like any other armor. You can move it from minion to minion on your team without losing any xp. Also, it works with more than just a tank strat. Look at Alucard. A CoC mage with a 100k+ STR/DEX, archery and an ELBow. Hell, you could stick one on a decay mage in a multi-minion team and have him able to do something before melee as well. Just because you don't see the strat possiblities, doesn't mean they don't exist.
April 8 2005 4:31 AM EDT
why are all these people whining about that stat enhancing Armor doesnt add to the stats of the Tattoo
more specific +ST or +DX items not enhancing the ST and DX of ToA.
ALSO it is that items DON'T take away the huge penalty so equip CML and TG and HoD on your ToA tank, it wont matter in DX because a penalty of 20% on 20 DX = puny and neglectible, you people should be thankful for it!
also why whine about this now and not whine about stat enhancing Armor not being included in spells like GS and Haste, they work the same way.
silly young grasshoppers you whiners all are ^_^
April 8 2005 4:59 AM EDT
If the enhanced stats were applied ontop of st/dex provided by spells, it would be even worse.
Here is an example
Boots that give -5% dex.
Toa giving 30k dex
Traind dex on minion: 100
With current way, the total would be 100x.05 =95 dex +30k dex=30095dex.
With what he wants it will be worse, and here is why:
30k+100=30100 x .05=28595 dex.
Now which one is better? The current method or the second one with enhanced armor stuff applied after the added up st and dex from spells and toa ?
April 8 2005 5:07 AM EDT
Sorry for double posting but on the other hand it is balanced since you would be forced to wear lower AC gear which gives positive bonus to dex/st in-order to use the TOA.
exactly, you would be 'forced' to change armor type.
Who exactly would be forcing you? I know I sure as heck wouldn't be giving up my MS for a BoM, and Tulks are the best gloves in the game for a tank already... ToA tanks get decent ac; normal tanks get ac and +8% STR. Seriously, does anyone remember that ToAs originally didn't show their increase on the main page? As I recall, Jonathan moved them there so we could know if our BL and Archery were working at 1.20 and 1.00, respectively.
April 8 2005 10:14 AM EDT
also please be aware that if you don't train ST and DX on your ToA tank that other tanks will outrun you so training at least some ST and DX is recommended ;)
April 8 2005 10:24 AM EDT
You know what, I really don't feel like arguing all these points over and over. Some people have actually read the majority of the replies, most haven't.
I'll repeat one statement AGAIN and then give up because It's not worth it.
Str and Dex enhancing armor wouldn't be a must, I personally am using/switching to AC armor. Although I could have a higher str/dex I prefer the AC boost. Right now, high AC is the only way to go, I was only trying to find a way to open up more room in the strat.
And it there ever a time you people post constructively? I see a lot of, "bad idea" but most agree there is some problem here, why don't you try giving another suggestion, or changing to fit your view. Even undertow changed to a constructive. If we work together instead of saying "this is dumb" maybe we can fix this.
April 8 2005 10:33 AM EDT
Look, there is so much junk and repeats of people asking the same questions, that I doubt Jon would ever read this and even THINK of passing it. If I didn't make the post, I wouldn't of read it! I must admit this is the longest post I have ever created =D
id like to see the tulkas and what not boost the ToA bonuses if the equipment nw is used to determine pr in the future
April 8 2005 4:14 PM EDT
The way I see it is stat enhancing equipment affects the wearer. Your tattoos aren't wearing armor so they don't get the benefits.
ugh. I know I said I wouldn't continue to argue, but you guys still don't get it. I put force in quotes because I was explaining it to the guy above me. O'course, you can't be forced to do anything in this game, but it would be like trying to have a light tank with adam/CMLs. And Spaceman, I acknowledged that you weren't doing this for you're own self-benefit after you told me you were selling you'r equipped items several posts up. Maybe if you read it..
now lets allow this post to die as it deserves.
April 8 2005 7:24 PM EDT
FireBreathingChicken, nearly every post you made has only been to make me look bad or in some way tarnish my reputation. That is not how you prove a point. It is known that you cannot make a change in this game without someone slightly suffering or having to do more work. So don't go using a poorly thought excuse like "it will be hard for high AC ToA tanks." Jon is not worried about steping on 5 people's toes if it benefits the game all around.
If you continue to use such slander I will take it personal.
April 8 2005 8:15 PM EDT
Spaceman, we just don't like the idea, why can't you just concede THAT instead of yelling at everyone who disagrees with you.
Right now ToA tanks are heavy armor tanks. About half the people in this thread think your idea makes sense, about half don't. I think it makes SENSE, but I don't like it. Items don't effect items. That's just the way it should be, in my opinion.
If your gonna have items start stacking bonuses, then every item bonus should stack seperatly. I prefer uniformity.
I don't think Jon's point was to ever make a tat add base stats to a minion. I think it was to augment his base stats with additional strength gained from an item.
Anyway, just felt like repeating myself.
April 9 2005 1:44 AM EDT
Like I just said, if you want to disagree fine, but "I don't like the idea" is hardly a reason. Just support your reasons. Undertow, that was an excellent post, you made it very clear what you thought and it wasn't personal in any way. That is exactly what I wanted 60 posts ago. That is the biggest problem with it and I am hoping someone has a way of figuring it out.
1) It "augments" STR and DEX the same way GS and Haste do. (See above post by me where I point out Jonathan didn't originally show the ToA increases on the main page)
2) It could cause an imbalance later on when ToA levels are closer to a million (600k ToA increase, +18% STR with a BoM and Tulks, thats an extra 108k increase on top natural STR and the related bonus.)
make it die!
/me starts kicking the thread unmercifully
April 9 2005 4:43 AM EDT
Good point nightmare, but then again, is the lose of over 100-150 AC worth it? I know this is a change, and all change comes with risk. But even with 100K more, you're still taking serious damage with no AC of any kind what so ever
And Chicken, that is the most useless and unessecary post possible. I consider that spamming the thread by all acounts. Not only did you not address any issue, but again insulting the idea. Since Jon hasn't commented at all maybe he is still thinking? Could be a guess. I doubt he'd ignore a 70 post long thread.
Its the choice you make when you decide to use a ToA over a ToE or basic armor. I personally think that there may come a time down the line where I may want to remove or move the ToA from my main tank in exchange for a TSA and SC, but I doubt that would be anytime before I pick up new minions (at 1M PR+)
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