In a sea of mages, be a shark (in General)

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] April 13 2005 9:32 AM EDT

It's the contrarian philosophy. Tread your own road. Move away from the pack and be 'different'. So, in a sea of mages, be a mage killer. I like my all tank team because most of the time the opponent wastes AMF experience against my team. My AC, even this early in the game, along with CBF and Mage Shield, gives me fairly good protection from mage based teams.
Of course, the tank strategy relies on net worth. I wonder what the proposed changes in May might do to my strategy? I would be sad if a change so drastic makes the 4T strategy ineffective.
Anyway, don't take the attitude of "If you can't beat them, join them". I say cut those mages to pieces!

Maelstrom April 13 2005 9:36 AM EDT

Hate to tell you, but my mage (even without his new wimpy tank sidekick) has been cutting you to pieces for some time.

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] April 13 2005 9:52 AM EDT

I'm not worried. Once my puny CBF grows some it'll take care of those wimpy fireballs ;)

Nixon Jibfest April 13 2005 10:13 AM EDT

wow, that's impressive maelstrom...
Barron has 40k higher PR and his networth is almost 3x larger than yours.

Mags April 13 2005 10:23 AM EDT

You have no idea how devastating ToE mages are. They all have huge score to PR ratios and farm the living Dickens out of me. That and people who blew USD on a really big CoBF or ELBow. I have 50k AMF and a ToE and it's not even enough to live out of ranged in most cases.

Maelstrom April 13 2005 10:26 AM EDT

Thanks for the tip, Mags - you're now on my fight list :p

Mags April 13 2005 10:44 AM EDT

Yeah, 230k:140k. That's what I'm talking about. :D Farm away, you're bigger than most of the ToE mages I get farmed by. Seriously, I have ~530k XP in AMF. It's not enough to live out of ranged even with a ToE. Wow.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 13 2005 10:56 AM EDT

;) Exactly how my main was fairing...

Until I realised how debilitating AMF + AC/Protection/ToE will be to Mages...

But it all boils down to AMF coming before AC and how Endurance works.

Change either of those, and I'm straight back to a Mage, or my ToE becomes a ToA... ;)

Mags April 13 2005 10:59 AM EDT

"AMF + AC/Protection/ToE"

Mages get 2-3 of these; their AC isn't even that bad. It takes a really, really large AMF to be a big deal for a ToE mage, and at that point you can't handle anyone else as cleanly. I mean *really* large, because the backwash is dramatically blunted by the ToE.

QBRanger April 13 2005 11:33 AM EDT

Well I have one of the largest AMF's and one of the higher NW's. Vs a TOE mage, specifically Black Belt Jones I bearly win. If he would have another 20k HP he would win. All that with a NW of less than 1/4th mine AND 50k less PR.
Instead of trying to nerf tanks by relating NW and PR, perhaps TOE mages need to be addressed.
They are simply the most powerful characters in the game.

Mags April 13 2005 12:18 PM EDT

Yep. Maybe I'm particularly ill-suited to kill them or something, but GlowAngel's 90k-pr char "Glowie" can beat me in 4 rounds consistently.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 13 2005 12:53 PM EDT

;) I'll not re state my observations here, but going from taking 19% of damage (50 AC, 15 Prot, 75% ToE moderate stats) - which granted is a little amount, combined with doling out a lot from a high DD spell makes a very dangerous opponent - to taking 11% or less (same stats as above, but a 40% AMF tacked on the front) really hurts mages.

I'm not talking about AMFs primary job being killing Mages on it's own, but it effectively shuts them down.


Mags April 13 2005 12:56 PM EDT

If you have 40% AMF, yes, you can be an effective mage-killer. This would require a large, large, large XP commitment.

I'm #14 on the score ranking for 1-minion chars (for now, getting farmed fast :D ). There's only 1 person above me, Talhearn, who is not a ToE/DD mage.

QBJohnnywas April 13 2005 12:57 PM EDT

Talhearn used to be though, didn't he GL? =)

Mistress Reyna April 13 2005 1:00 PM EDT

chomp chomp chomp

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] April 13 2005 1:22 PM EDT

I really DO miss my ToE. When I committed to a tank team I converted my ToE to a ToA. Yeah, Don hits harder but the dd mages hurt him alot more now. I beginning to wonder if I'm not better off returning to a ToE on Don to allow him to last longer and do more damage over time, especially since Sancho is a high AC blocker.

ToEs are definitely powerful, and in my opinion may be just as suitable for a tank team as for a mage.

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] April 13 2005 1:38 PM EDT

One thing comes to mind that would be useful to a ToA tank. And that is obviously doing away with the restriction of not being able to equip body armor at the same time as a tattoo. Because that really does hurt a tank much more than a mage. For a ToE mage adding armor might help a little, but it would help the tank much more. I think it would add more balance as well. Besides, for a tank who cares if the tattoos are covered up by that Adamantite Cuirass or TSA?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 13 2005 2:02 PM EDT

Ouch Johnnywas, low blow!! ;)

Yeah, I've lost a lot of power by changing, but now I'm getting my tank sorted out, I'm getting back to where I used to be. But it's slow going...

As for AMF at 40%, that's having it a roughly the same level as the DD you face. As I am, I'm getting mostly 60/70% from my AMF.

Consider the ET/EM teams with 50% of all their xp focused into AMF. What mage, single or otherwise, can keep focusing 50% of their total xp into thier DD spell? FB/HP ones are probably it. And that still gives a 40% reduction. Let your DD drop behind those AMFs and you'll see the 60s and 70s start appearing. Couple that with a minion with high AC, protection and a ToE and you'll find mages doing very little...

Also, Tanks have VA going for them. Some of my fights I find I end with only a little HP lost. After damage is reduced by my ToE, I get a fair percentage of that back from my VA. All I need now is to start landing more multiple hits. ;)

Mistress Reyna April 13 2005 2:03 PM EDT

chomp chomp chomp
/ jaws theme song

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 13 2005 2:12 PM EDT

Just an example..

My AMF hit for 0.67.

Talhearn lacerated Mang Dagul with A Set of Knuckle Dusters [27555]
Talhearn draws strength from his weapon! [5511]
Talhearn dislimbed Mang Dagul with A Set of Knuckle Dusters [37488]
Talhearn draws strength from his weapon! [1407]

Polgas's familiar stumbled swinging at Talhearn
Polgas takes damage from his own Magic missile (12381)!
Polgas's Magic missile hit Talhearn [3889]

The mage took over three times the damage he inflicted on me from the AMF backlash, and in this round I gained more life from VA than was taken away. ;)

Mags April 13 2005 2:41 PM EDT

Tragically, you're proof this doesn't work, GentlemanLoser. I'm not sure why you're so proud; look at your combat log. Susan Death, DragonSpooker, and Master Xi are all killing you in between 2 and 5 rounds. I can hit a high AMF on 4-mage teams; they're not the problem...

It's just a matter of time until the lower-score ToE mages find you and knock yours down too. D:

QBRanger April 13 2005 4:57 PM EDT

Once again for all those not paying attention to my earlier statements.

Vs a typical fight with Black Belt Jones, a SMTOE (single mage ToE user).

Black Belt Jones takes damage from his own Cone of cold (13442)!
Black Belt Jones's Cone of cold hit Conquest [51153], War [18349]
I put this round as my other minion dies on the first COC.

This with my AMF this is the highest in the game-over 235k. Along with a PR of over 70k higher.

Conquest shot Black Belt Jones with A Parthians Horse Bow [15899]
Conquest tapped Black Belt Jones with A Blood Red Greatsword [7632]
My damage vs Black Belt Jones with x67 ELB and an x67 MH. Both with my TOA tank that has over 225k str.

So please think about whether or not a TOE is overpowered.

Mistress Reyna April 13 2005 5:01 PM EDT

chomp chomp chomp

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 13 2005 6:43 PM EDT

Mags, I'm proof what doesn't work?

Susan and DragonSpooker beat me... So do quite a few others! ;) I can't touch Spid yet, his ToA +DBs mean I can't hit him with my dex attacks, and I can't hit him with my relatively low pth. But my tank is in his infancy and I plan to try to make him better.

Susan has a massive FB, my AMF barly touches it. Same with DS. My AMF casts on him at about 30%. I've been neglecting my AMF to bring my tank stats into line. But when I'm comfortable with them, I'll be pumping AMF as high as I can take it.

But I'm not a team that has a dedicated AMF minion, that has spent 50% of their total xp from day one in AMF.

DS also uses a ToE, which means my rather mediocre physical damage (about 30K average) hits for maybe a quarter of that if I'm lucky. But I'd rather do a quater of my damage (and do this multiple times a round) than do a tenth, or a fifth!

If I added a second minion, and stuck a CBF and MgS on him, Susan would be gimped. Totally.

As for Rangers comment about ToE's being overpowered, just think about it. Same stats as my post above, 50 AC, 15 protection. You'ld take ~76% of all damage that hits you (excluding decay...). Throw in a ToE to the equation large enough to hit the 75% cap (And with the large ToJ's that were artisted over, not hard to reach...) and you now take just under 20% damage...

I thought CBFs and MgS were death for mages. AC+Prot+ToE provides just as good a reduction, and it's not situational...

But hey, I'll use one till it's changed.


QBJohnnywas April 13 2005 6:53 PM EDT

"I thought CBFs and MgS were death for mages. AC+Prot+ToE provides just as good a reduction"

True enough GL. The CBF/MgS combo is only really as effective against Fireball. Against the other direct damage attacks and tank attacks it's nowhere near as good as the ToE. The ToE provides good all-round damage reduction. I may switch, providing the next change month doesn't nerf it... which I'm expecting unfortunately...

The tank has one advantage over mages - the ability, cash willing, to increase your damage output by a much larger amount in a far shorter time than pumping xp into your DD spells gives you. The possible changes to pr calculations won't change that.

Chocolate Thunder April 13 2005 6:58 PM EDT

No point worrying about ToE'd mages... we'll be nerfed to nothing after May 1st (Though i'm unsure exactly how at the moment). I sure hope the rest of you guys and gals have been saving up for your inevitable strat changes (At least you'll have a nice oversized minion to get started with).

Side Note: Do I get blamed for abusing this CoC/ToE combo or does Chuckles?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 13 2005 7:04 PM EDT

And as noted, both Tanks and Mages can get AC/Prot/ToE reductions. At the moment, even at relatively similar levels. It would be hard for a tank to break 100AC without body armour or a heavy cash investment...

Another advantage Tanks have over mages is the lack of a percentage reduction that comes before this.

But, the equalising factor is that mages do so much more damage than Tanks, so need this reduction. Don't they?

Multiple physical attacks per round, compared to magics one have always been the answer to this.

But as I've said before, as AC gets bigger, and people train Protection up to 23+ I see a lot more stalemates happening...

Until ToE's are changed that is! ;)

But tanks will just change to ToA's and mages back go back to ToJ's...


Mags April 13 2005 7:17 PM EDT

IMO, and speaking as one who uses -- relies on -- it, it's the ToE that needs to be nerfed. Hard.

The reason mages with ToE's are so devastating is that ToE's act similar to GA and others, in that their level relative to the absolute number of the damage is what matters. Magic damage is once per round. Physical is multiple. Even if the damage per round is much higher, physical damage gets sopped up to a much greater degree.

*wrenches the ;) keys off GentlemanLoser's keyboard* I really hope your strategy does well, but the constant winks are driving me mad. I'd wager your score will be below or near your PR as you're discovered by large CoBF's and lower-PR single mages. We'll see. I'm flirting with that line myself entirely due to the above.

Lumpy Koala April 13 2005 7:49 PM EDT

well Mags, I am sorry, but I will still farm you until you decide to change strat :) As for GL, he's off my radar coz... he's obviously my teammate ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 13 2005 7:51 PM EDT

Sorry, I'll stop using that emoticon! I just want to get across that I'm usually light hearted in my on-line posts, and not trying to cause offense.

(Had to restrain winking then...)

I agree with your sentiments on ToEs (Add CBF s as well!) but not on the differencies on what they do to physical and magical damage. It would only really matter if tat sizes were still small, but they're mostly large enough to hit the cap for everyones physical damage (the highest blow is what, around 70K..) and even though magical damage is a lot higher in single strikes, thats what AMF is for. To reduce it to levels moderate ToE can then cap at.

So everyone with a moderate ToE can really be assured of hitting the 75% cap.

I thought long and hard about the necessity of using a CBF on a tank to stop CBF splash damage. But with a ToE (again) you don't need one. The splash only happens once per round and is reduced to a tickle. Fighting Pugad Baboy who has a CBF in the top numbers, the splash is negligable. I'll get an example.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 13 2005 7:56 PM EDT

Umm.. Well maybe not quite that negligable...

This is what I took from a couple of CBF s...

+56: 112,165

+34: 65,668

And that's with a ToE...

But I still think CBF s are over powered!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 13 2005 8:00 PM EDT

Second thoughts, (I appologise, it's late here..) I don't think my ToE is large enough to reach the cap for those two CBF s above.

Pugads one is reduced to around 19,438. Which is a lot more manageable!

Mags April 13 2005 11:42 PM EDT

I fully agree. CoBF's are way, way out of whack right now, even with the restrictions they place on you.

Starseed^Lure April 14 2005 12:28 AM EDT

Yeah, if I owned a CBF, I'd probably be trying to sell it. I'm pretty sure they'll get a fix soon and I'd hate to see one of my items plummet so hard in market value.

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] April 14 2005 12:43 AM EDT

That's the reason i haven't pumped up my CBF. A single minion with a giant CBF is understandable. But with multiple minions you have to go up slowly on the CBF so as not to kill your other minions off with the splash.

InebriatedArsonist April 14 2005 3:24 AM EDT

If I added a second minion, and stuck a CBF and MgS on him, Susan would be gimped. Totally.

-Huh? I somehow doubt that. Placing both a CBF and a MgS on the same minion would only hurt your team, as that minion would be unable to use any spell or skill. You'll have a basic tank, sure, but you're having enough trouble just providing equipment for the main tank as it is, and a second would completely exasperate that issue. You'll end up with a diluted team, a two weakened tanks and a chance in hell of getting anywhere.

And, let's not forget about the concentrations of experience on Susan. Her fireball is almost constantly growing, and you'd need to pour cash into the CBF to compensate for that. Right now, you'd need at least six or seven million to finance a suitable upgrade on an existing CBF, all the while worrying about upgrades and purchases for the rest of the team. Unless you have plenty of real currency to spend, don't think that keeping up will be easy.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 14 2005 3:40 AM EDT

Sorry, I wasn't picking of Susan specifically, but FB mages in general.

Adding a second minion (which I'm not going to do..) I'd train just HP on it, and get as much AC equipment as well as the MgS (Which I already have) and a CBF.

Coupled with AMF, the MgS + CBF should mean (it's the linear cost of CBF upgrades that makes it easier for me to upgrade a CBF than it is to continue training FB...) that that single minion takes little if any damage from FB. What this does for my ToE tank would be to half your potential FB damage after AMF, which should hopefully bring it into the 75% cap range for my ToE.

Granted, with a large enough ToE this would be moot anyway, as it would not be needed.

Addionally, the combination of AMF, MgS, AC + Protection should mean that MM does little to the first minion, and when melee is hit, CoC damage is again halved for my main Tank.

But this is all thoerycraft.

The combination of AMF, MgS and CBF (with AC and Protection) gimps FB. The power of CBF is that it is a direct reduction after numerous percentage reductions. If AMF, MgS, AC and Protection can lower the FB damage enough, the CBF only has to be small to mop up the remaining damage.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 14 2005 4:04 AM EDT

More theorycraft. (I have no motivation for work...)

Susan has the highest FB in the game and her level does an approx 158,843 damage to a single target (FB damage to a single target is about 1/2 of the level isn't it? Or slightly higher?) To be safe, I'll pump the damage up to 200K.

Lets assume an AMF that casts at 20% against it. No one has a level 300K+ AMF atm. That takes the damage down to around 160K.

Over two minions thats about 80K each. With a max roll, a CBF would only need to be +40 to stop that all on it's own, +80 on average.

But first lets assume the CBF wearer has a MgS (A small one, say
+10), 50 enchantment AC and someone is casting a level 15 protection on him.

first, the MgS on average reduces the FB to (MgS's are 2K per point aren't they?) 70K. Then (again I'm ignoring the direct AC reduction) AC and Protection reduce this to 53,253. That's a lot more manageable for CBF s to then reduce. The largest in the game stops that on average, and with a max roll so will a +27. Even if if's not stopped completley, only a small amount of damage will get through...

On to the Second minion, this one using a ToE (for this minion, I'll assume no AC, a protection of 15 and a ToE large enough to reacht he 75% cap)

From the 80K damage the FB inflicts, this minion would take ~ 17K damage.

Oh, and non of this includes the 30%/20%/10% penalties for ranged rounds.


Becoming April 14 2005 5:59 AM EDT

So much theorycraft, I have to spread the <3

QBRanger April 14 2005 7:47 AM EDT

Vs Susan Death with a AMF of 230k and a +56 cobf:

Death cast Antimagic Field on Susan (0.41)

Later in first melee round:
Susan's Fireball hit Conquest [52259]
Susan's Fireball hit War for no damage

Later after conquest dies:
Susan takes damage from his own Fireball (10452)!
Susan's Fireball hit War for no damage

Without the COBF, I would lose in 5-6 rounds.

With it I win only in 12.

I am doing about 15k damage per shot in melee with a x67 elb and 8-9k in melee with a x67 MH. This with a TOA tank having a 220k str.

My other tank that has 50k str and a x46 BoNE only does 4k damage a melee round.

Yea, The TOE is no overpowered at all.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 14 2005 8:12 AM EDT

Hadn't noticed Susan had changed from a CBF to a ToE...

The ToE needs to be adjusted, but unless CBF s are as well melee will have no way of standing agains the splash.

Ranged attacks suck in melee, so that encourages people to move to magic attacks. Without ToE s to reduce MM/CoC damage, what is to stop Mages from running even more rampent if ToE s are reduced?

MgS s are capped and CBF s only work versus FB.

Does everyone need to train at least, if not more than 50% of thier xp into AMF just to stay viable?

QBRanger April 14 2005 8:15 AM EDT

Just wait till Susan retrains her FB to COC.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 14 2005 8:17 AM EDT

Yeah, I still stand that FB is dead.

It's been reduced to a situational spell, that won't work versus CBF which rules out the anyone in the top ranks...

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] April 14 2005 9:32 AM EDT

I am trying the strategy of having a CBF tank in front of a ToA tank. Against a mage based team the CBF tank, equipped with a MgS good armor and with AMF and some protection, will prevail. Against a tank based team the ToA tank will do the heavy work. Protecting these 2 tanks are a couple of high AC tanks taking most of the ranged damage and protecting some in melee as well. I hope it works--either way I'm having fun with it. :)

Alienfb April 14 2005 2:30 PM EDT

I have been running Two Tanks with Two CoBFs for ages and it works. I am constantly around the top ten chars and this is with considerably less battles fought than with the top guys.

My first tank has a big CoBF and MGs, no enchants and a big fat two handed weapon. The second is a light tank with full 30% Strength bonus from a Trollskin, Tulkas, BOM and a Katana.

However there is a down side the new COC mages are begining to kill me off. Beware the COC+TOE combination its deadly.
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