Tank dmg scaling vs Single mage ToE (in General)

Duke April 24 2005 3:55 PM EDT

It done this post to show that ToE is overpower and is unbalancing this game.So ill make some data that everyone can look at.

Here some scaling with the 2 MORG

Small one A Morgul-Hammer [84x45] (+30) 1,715,846
Big one A Blood Red Greatsword [84x67] (+38) 4,429,040

Tank dmg scaling vs demoninuyasha Crimson Knights

20 STR/small morg 197 288 199 196 overall 220 point per hit
20 STR/big morg 371 365 369 293 overall 267 point per hit

The big morg deal 21% more dammge that the small one

1,234 STR/small morg 1497 1504 1730 2069 overall 1700
1,234 STR/big morg 2636 2746 2783 2089 overall 2563

The big morg deal 50% higher dmg that the small one.The increase by 61.7 time over the previus STR have increase dmg by 9.5 time for the big morg and 7.7 time for the small morg.

ST: 3,426/small morg 3512 2347 2905 3242 overall 3001
ST: 3,426/big morg 4405 3674 3994 4020 overall 4023

Increas in STR 2.7 time increase in dammage 56% for the big morg and 76%.

At this point is again The Incredible Edible Egg still 20 str so scaling will stay the same AC 20

ST: 9,291/small morg 5277 4769 4029 5077 overall 4788
ST: 9,291/big morg 8128 5530 7077 5013 overall 6437

increase in STR 2.7 time increase in dammage big morg 60% small 59%.

With my char the increase is about the same
My conclusion is you need 5.5 time the increase in STR to double your dammage unrelate to your weapon.The gap bettween the weapon stay the same.

Single mage scaling of dammage

Cone of cold: 25 (5)
Cone of cold: 2,436 (541)
Cone of cold: 3,965 (881)
Cone of cold: 8,339 (1,853)

That a linear scaling

Black card situation COC 317516 about 70500 DMG minus usual AC and stuff.

70K overall over 4 minion let assume he deal more that 140k on a single minion.If i make my projection from my tank to deal the same dmg i have to increase my my STR to 2.7 million (overall of 10K in melee)

Let assume they are the same PR a 300K MPr will have about 500K STR.So he about 5.4 time 2.7 if you count double hit.To reach twice the dmg you will need a much bigger weapon.1 that deal much more dmg.So at each 300K you weapon alone will have to deal about twice the dammage.X67 X90 X 140 X 210 X320 and so on.

That alone can be over turn as we fire in range and few others advantage.

defence wise 200 AC block about 35% of DD a ToE block 75% of everything so there a 40% gap there.

So how we are suppost to keep up on offence and defence.Question to jon when is the Nerf is coming.I might have put thing to it worst that they are but looking at every SM ToE SCORE/PR show there is a probleme and it need to be adresse

Becoming April 24 2005 4:47 PM EDT

Hasn't this dead horse been beaten enough already?

Anyway, no adjustments will occur until a change month, which happens to be a mere 7 days away.

QBRanger April 24 2005 4:51 PM EDT

Actually, who knows for a fact that Jon will adjust TOE's. Nothing is certain. So no, its not been beat up enough. At least till something gets actually done.

Relic April 24 2005 4:56 PM EDT

Why not make a Tank Archer w/ a ToE. I had that strat to begin with and was really tough. I even added a high BoTh, BoM, Belegs, and VA. I could beat a lot of single mages, I added an AMF minion and found them to be even easier. If you can't beat them, somtimes you have to take their strengths and incorporate them. =)

[FireBreathing]Chicken April 24 2005 5:07 PM EDT

But not only is your strength growing, so is the networth of the Morgul.

Becoming April 24 2005 5:07 PM EDT

What I was hinting at is that there have been numerous threads about this over the past couple weeks. If nothing is done with ToE's in May, then sure, post until your heart's content, but posting yet *another* thread about it this close to a change month seems a little silly.

I think my main problem with the post is that you just give figures without any description of your data collection or math, so it looks like just another person complaining. Duke, if you could provide some more details it would make the picture much clearer and strengthen your point a great deal. :)

[FireBreathing]Chicken April 24 2005 5:09 PM EDT

and melee tanks aren't very effective without BL.

Duke April 25 2005 9:56 AM EDT


Thing are very simple it improvement curve it take 5.5 time more STR to double your melee dmg vs a linear scaling for Mage.By definition you will need to increase you weapon NW to compesate.so each time your PR double in overall you will need to double your X on your weapon to keep your offence power with mage.

By definition in any game mage will have lower defence that conter balance the higher offence but with a TOE they block 75% to have similar armor gear you will need billion of cash and and hundred of billion if you have a ToA withour the ToA our offence is getting even weaker.

so we are in a downspiral, either we will need a others very large Cash flow mostly from USD or moving to Toe until all strat are ToE.

Special J April 25 2005 10:26 AM EDT

Wait until next month, and something will be done.

ToE's were never a problem until the artist came to town, the draw back for using the artist is not harsh enough.

QBRanger April 25 2005 10:28 AM EDT

I agree with Mrwuss.

When TOE's were relatively small, they could not handle the damage being done. But with the Tattoo artist, some high level TOE's came about and completely destroyed the balance of the game.

Duke April 25 2005 10:36 AM EDT

Tatto artist or none that was just a question of time and ToE unlike all others tat dont need to be very strong to work perfectly.

Chocolate Thunder April 25 2005 10:54 AM EDT

First, I'd like to note that my 2nd largest ToE in the game has never been to a tattoo Artist, I paid 600K for it in the middle of January.

Second, 45% of my experience is being pumped into a single DD spell. Gee, i wonder why it does so much damage. I don't see any of you concentrating 45% of your experience into a single means of causing damage.

Third, does anyone understand endurance around here? There's a cap on the amount of damage i can block (I think its around 1/3 my tat's level). I cannot block 75% of Gyaxx's bow or 75% of Susan's FB or 75% of BCS's CoC. The ToE is designed to block small damage, not big damage. Stop comparing Endurance to AC, they are not even close to the same thing.

The problem isn't that DD spells are too powerful, its that I _can_ pump 45% of my experience into one without much penalty.

Yes, SMToE is overpowered currently (the very fact that the number jumped from about 4 or 5 of us in early February to about 100 of us now is proof enough), but the ToE (See anyone using a ToE for Non-SMToE reasons for this) or the DD spells aren't overpowered by themselves. So I say to leave it up to Jon to find a elegant solution, like he usually does, and stop with the pointless complaining. Everyone knows the SMToE days are numbered as it is.

Side Note: NW is just as overpowered. I drew Gyaxx a few times this week and he has about 30% less PR than my overpowered strat does. (You NW junkies are all coming down with me!)


QBJohnnywas April 25 2005 10:57 AM EDT

Choc, nice point there. Everybody seems to miss the fact that CoC was the unwanted runt of the litter when it came to DD spells until Jon upped it's damage level. I went Single Mage/CoC when that happened and was amazed at how much more powerful than FB it was, even at low levels.

The ToE may be more powerful than it should be but defense doesn't kill your opponents...

QBRanger April 25 2005 11:16 AM EDT

Actually in a TOE's case defense does kill your opponents.

Esp when AMF backlash and GA damage is reduced by 75%.

mihalis April 25 2005 11:42 AM EDT

The last change on endurance was on march 9. If it was truly overpowered, it would have been changed already, no?
Most players use 4 minions teams. TOE mages work very well against 4 minions! How many 2 or 3 minions strategies have you tried before saying TOE is overpowered?

QBRanger April 25 2005 11:46 AM EDT

Have you looked at my character??

Its a 3 minion team without a TOJ so its a real 3 minion team.

The TOE mages occasionally draw with me and I have 10 times their NW and over 75k more PR. One in particular would win most of the time if s/he had a corn and EG's.

And in fact vs 4 minion teams TOE mages should do worse since most of those have AS to boost their hp's while 1,2 and 3 minion teams do not.
Also 4 minion teams mostly use a TOJ making the DD damage split among 5 minion.

chernobyl April 25 2005 12:23 PM EDT

Wow, I swore I wouldn't post about the ToE issue, but I just have to.

DD/ToE vs. AMF/GA/Tank = mage wins. Hands down! I've been through it a thousand times already. I run EEWT and whenever I hit a ToE mage, my AMF, GA, and Katana all do piddling damage to the mighty DD minion that I face, regardless of the number of opponent minions. Pretty frustrating considering my AMF is 65K and often stops DD cold.

ToE is great. It's useful. It's not too powerful, compared to other tattoos. But, it makes a direct-damage mage too powerful through its defense against AMF. It sounds (to this old gamer) like the best balancer that could be applied is to make ToE do only half its effect to AMF damage, much like GA does half its effect to ToJ's.

Chocolate Thunder April 25 2005 12:43 PM EDT

Other possible solutions:
- Make strength matter more (both in offense and defense)
- Increase the amount of levels needed for a ToE to block set damage without touching the 75% (IE. Instead of blocking up to 1/3 its level.. have it block up to 1/4 or so)
- Reduce the AMF blocking and let me kill myself.

Mags April 25 2005 1:52 PM EDT

"I don't see any of you concentrating 45% of your experience into a single means of causing damage. "

You're kidding, right? You presume tanks or archers put over 55% of XP into HP and ancillary spells? Brock has ~70% of his XP into ST, DX, and UC, and still does a small fraction of the damage mages do.

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] April 26 2005 5:18 PM EDT

Oh, let the overpowered ToEs rule! Change it to Mage Blender. Give all tanks canes to wack at the mages just before they get magic-missiled to death. Tanks ruled in CB1 and mages rule in cb2. It doesn't matter! I will continue to grow my 4T team and enjoy every minute. There are 6 different types of tattoos interfacing with many different strategies. For the moment, it appears that the single mage/ToE combination is the most powerful. I'm sure it wasn't planned--it just happened to work out that way. But, things have a tendency to not stay the same in this game, and I'm counting on that!
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