To T or not to T? (in General)

BrandonLP May 22 2005 11:24 AM EDT

I've acquired all the nice, rare goodies I might possibly need to run a good tank (HoE, EBs, EGs, BoM, BTh, ELB, etc.), but my problem is this: I want to go single tank. Should I use armor? Should I go with ToA? Perhaps a ToE? Obviously I tried to acquire gear that would enhance my stats (note the Elven gear, BoM, and HoE). I could probably live without the BoM, go with a MS, and run a single ToA tank. But therein lies another thought: Would it be more productive to go with a different team? Perhaps I should keep my mage and hire a new minion with no tat for my tank. Or maybe I should move the tat to the tank. Too many thoughts, too little data to back any of it up. If you guys have any creative suggestions, I'm all ears. =)

[Banned]Monty May 22 2005 11:34 AM EDT

my tank is nothing but a ToA and a rather large VB...but it does great. I dont even have any leathers on my tank. (can someone PLEASE add VB to the spell checker? >.<).

BrandonLP May 22 2005 11:35 AM EDT

Right, but you also have three other minions.

[Banned]Monty May 22 2005 11:49 AM EDT


[FireBreathing]Chicken May 22 2005 12:03 PM EDT

armor really isn't worthwhile unless you have either a single minion, or a really high PR, or both.

[FireBreathing]Chicken May 22 2005 12:14 PM EDT

oop. ignore that post.

TheEverblacksky May 22 2005 12:40 PM EDT

with i nice size ToA..... and good weapons is enough.... maybe even db's and BG's would rock.... i used to run a char that had a very nice score/pr ratio when i did this. so erm i don't know if it's still the same char but check The End of Time

TheEverblacksky May 22 2005 12:42 PM EDT

it is now Bruce Campbell

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 22 2005 1:16 PM EDT

I've seen a lot of discussion about Tanks, ToA's and Mages Shields.

Personally, I don't see any other physical minion beating a Single ToA tank.

Yes you can get a lot of +% to Str, and a lot of AC if you don't use a tattoo.

Strength doesn't mean anything if you can't hit, and AC can now be lessened by the very powerful VB.

Add to this that strength is no as important as dexterity, (damage is more heavily weighted towards weapon stats and low strength) and ToA boosted Dexterity wins.

Comparing two tank just training base stats, 1 using a ToA, the other + strength armour. Both have equal weapons (although the ToA uses a VB)

1) ToA tank trains 1/2 xp into HP and 1/2 xp into Dex. Leaves Str at base and get's boosted Dex from tattoo. Also has a 50% chance of an additional attack per round. Low AC.

2) Str boosting AC tank. Trains 1/3 xp int HP, Str and Dex. Str get boosted at least 30% by armour. Has high AC (reducing dexterity).

At equal dexterity, both tanks get a 50% chance to hit each other once. Then pth from weapons comes into play. The ToA tank will have more dexterity than the AC tank. Even a 10% difference in Dexterity leads to a 10% shift in chance to hit from dex. Assume both weapons pth's are negated by DB's (and that the AC tank doesn't use CMLs...) the ToA will 50% of the time get a second hit.

When the AC tank does hit, he will hit for more. The ToA tank has more hitpoints.

When the ToA tank hits, he cuts AC in half. The AC tank has less hitpoints.

Unless the additional damage from Strength betters the amount of damage lost from missing attacks (which I doubt will happen, and will get worse as both tnkas PR grows), the AC tank will always lose out to the ToA tank.

I hope this makes sense! :)

BrandonLP May 22 2005 1:17 PM EDT

Wonderfully put, GL. My only regret now is probably using a BTh instead of a MH. =)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 22 2005 1:28 PM EDT

Nah, train a little VA and use a VB!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 22 2005 1:30 PM EDT

Oh, last thoughts. Having base ToA strength doesn't really hurt damage 9it just takes you longer to get the most out of your weapons x) it will make you weaker to EC, which has most effect when Strength is reduced to zero.

So you will have to train a little into Strength every now and again to keep your total above any EC's you face.

BrandonLP May 22 2005 1:38 PM EDT

VB isn't a bad idea, but I would imagine training some VA combined with VA from the BTh would probably be better in the long run.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 22 2005 1:43 PM EDT

Until you meet the first 300AC + Protection + ToE Aura wall! ;)

But there might be a flaw in my reasoning... :(

If the ToA gives the same increase to PR that training the same amount of xp to get the stats given by the ToA would give, then it's all moot.

If a 100K PR tank wears a ToA that boosts thier PR to 500K PR, and has the same stat values as a 500K PR tank (without armour modifiers) then it all boils down to Armour bonuses versus +50 pth.


If the ToA give you more bang for your buck stat wise, it wins hands down.

BrandonLP May 22 2005 1:44 PM EDT

Right, and I've already hinted at (with my gear selection) that I'm not interested in a heavily armed tank. I'd rather take advantage of the multipliers offered by the gear I do have.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 22 2005 1:52 PM EDT

And it's more complex then I've already put above.

You have to compare the PR given by the ToA and but the armour you would otherwise wear.

For long term goals, dex and str boosting armour and naturally trained stats might give a better boost than a ToA, but it really does revolve around how much all these items increase your PR by...

With 1 million dexterity, a 20% bonus from armour would be equal to a ToA of level 333,333. If your armour gives you less PR than a tattoo of that size, then you gain an advantage. That only increases as your natural stats increase. (as you no longer have to increase your PR from items, but the Tattoo will always increase your PR...)

I'm starting to think that a ToA is a short term booster which get's bettered by items in the very long term...

QBRanger May 22 2005 1:54 PM EDT

Well, yes and no to your last statement.

If a TOA gives you that much PR to get to 500k your using a way overpowered TOA. But if you use an appropriately powered TOA, I have found there is no contest as to the benefits it gives in relation to the bump in PR you get from it. Also, that extra 50% change to hit is often a battle changer that no amount of xp and just lots of money can duplicate (PTH).

Also, If I could do it again, instead of my MH I would use a BoTH so I could use a MS for a lot more AC.

If you go TOA tank, I would use the following items: BG, MS, HoE, DB, Elb, Possibly Seekers and BoTH. I would learn either AMF or DM (depends if you get seekers a lot, AMF without seekers, DM with seekers), and of course archery. The only other spell I would consider is GA and not VA.

Now remember as a single tank your at a big disadvantage in one aspect. The enchanters you put in front soak up rounds of damage. That is lets say with my elb I do 100k hp a shot and shoot 3 a missle round. If there is a 20 hp enchanter/blocker in front, all 3 shots will go after that enchanter "wasting" shots. But as a single tank you take all that damage. Even though you have to split the xp up, I perfer at least 2 minions, so 1 in front buys you a round where your tank is not getting damaged. You need a GA/AMF or GA/DM so why not have a minion in front where you can equip him with a corn to boost his spells.

Just my thoughts.

BrandonLP May 22 2005 1:55 PM EDT

That's exactly my hope, GL. =) Now my biggest concern is figuring out whether or not I can make this work as a single tank.

QBRanger May 22 2005 2:05 PM EDT


One thing your not considering is that if you have to put xp into str and dex naturally your HP will be a lot less. If you use the TOA to boost your str/dex as I do, then you can have lots of hp as you need to live. Yes, your pr will go up but IMO its worth it.

My TOA is 471k level and gives me 120k PR. Breaking it down it gives me 348k to both my str and dex. To get that much str and dex your talking about million and million of xp. Figuring 10 xp per point of dex and str (we know its more like 12-13 as you get this high), thats over 3.48 million for str and dex alone. Together thats 7 million xp. 7 million xp adds about 233k to your PR (using an approximation that every 3k in skill/spell/stat level is 1k MPR). So as you can see, the TOA is actually a CHEAPER PR way to get str and dex.

The only disadvatage is the fact you cannot wear body armor and a cloak. But with a COBF out of the game things have changed in that you dont need a cloak. Use a MS and your AC can get over 75 possibly near 100. This vs about 220 for a regular tank wearing dex/str boosting items such as TG/EB/EC/HOE. Remember in this case you do not wear Adam but rather MC or MCM.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 22 2005 2:11 PM EDT

Brandon, as a single tank you'll need either a MgS or AMF... Mages do too much damage to survive without some form of protection.

Ranger, now there is no such thing as too large a tattoo. Other tattoos might not help you as much if they are too large, but the ToA is an exception. As it only grants Str and dex (ignoring the bonus pth for now) it's giving just str and dex at the cost of PR. Just the same as training xp into those two stats.

You wouldn't put a 1 million ToA on a 20 PR tank however, as they only have 20 PR's worth of hit points.

But then again you wouldn't train a 1 million PR tank in just Strength and Dex. ;)

BrandonLP May 22 2005 2:14 PM EDT

AMF was definitely a given. Seeing as how I wanted to go ToA, MgS definitely isn't an option. I've basically gathered, thusfar, that SMT isn't going to be possible at this point in time.

QBRanger May 22 2005 2:16 PM EDT

"If a 100K PR tank wears a ToA that boosts thier PR to 500K PR, and has the same stat values as a 500K PR tank (without armour modifiers) then it all boils down to Armour bonuses versus +50 pth. "


Thats what I was referring to.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 22 2005 2:36 PM EDT

Ranger, I still wouldn't class that sort of tattoo as overpowered. What is an appropriately powered ToA?

It's good to know ToA's give more stats than training the same amount of PR does, but I still think years down the line (hah! as if things won't have changed by then!) natural stats with percentage bonuses should grant more stats, for less PR, than a ToA.

But working this out will be a mammoth task!

As for ToA tanks training more hit points, I mentioned that in my original post, but even that get's more complex with virtual hps given by more AC. Especially with the inclusion of VBs.

ToA tank trains more HP s, have less of a modifier from AC.

AC tank Trains less HP s but get's more of a modifier from a higher AC...

Phew. This NW = PR change is far more complicated than I originally thought.. :/

Jason Bourne May 22 2005 5:03 PM EDT

go two tanks brandon. the first one just trains stats and BL, use all of your "super" items on him. the second tank trains 1/2 hp and max AMF with a VA on the side. this will give you HP's still over those of your smaller tank, and amf that is equivalent to training 1/4 of your total exp (relatively good size, at least good enough) and a VA so that out of ranged your two tanks are going to soak up some Hp's.
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