A Fresh Idea for Change Month (in General)
I used to gripe about this back when CB2 first started, and I figured I'd bring it up again with a new way of dealing with it.
IMO, Dispel Magic is a bit too powerful. Now, before you go thread-bashing me, think about the other EO spells for a second or two. In the case of AMF--a spell that is relative to the DD spell being affected by it--it's in it's own class compared to EC and DM. EC is where I want you to focus your attention since it has a linear progression.
Dispel magic has the ability to fizzle ED spells completely. This is what makes it so powerful. Yes, EC can reduce ST and DX to 0, but only AFTER Haste and GS have been cast. So, the formula for EC reduction is basically:
(Dexterity + Haste) - EC = Final Dexterity
If two minions caste haste, both of these spells will stack on to the minion's DX before EC reduction is applied. The same goes for Strength and GS in relation to EC. What I'm getting at, again, is the fact that DX and Haste (or ST and GS) stack FIRST, and then EC is applied.
In the case of DM, if one minion trains an ED spell to a level that can be fizzled by DM, and another minion does the same, the ED spell will still have 0 benefit. I propose that a change be made so that the spells first stack, and then DM reduction applied.
June 28 2005 8:40 PM EDT
<flame heat=1 get_personal=false profanity=false>[KVM]Vampire King</flame>
(Save the flames for those who really deserve them, anyway.)
Seriously, though, DM is more like AMF than EC in a major respect. EC does a flat differential against the opponents' stats. AMF has an effect relative to the target's DD; DM has an effect relative to the target's ED. AMF and DM both target spells while EC targets ST and DX directly. AMF and DM stack in reverse, too: if two minions cast AMF, their effect stacks versus the target's DD; similarly, if two minions cast DM, their effect stacks versus the target's ED.
I do see your point, DM is far more effective against GS/Haste than EC is. However, EC is effective against trained DX and ST, while DM is not. Choose your weapons wisely, I say.
I'm not going to agree nor disagree (but your argument holds far more weight than FF/FB being over powered).
I will say that I believe EC to be under powered compared to DM or AMF. I'll also say that the introduction of a DM blockin' hat would be a spectacular idea. :)
June 28 2005 9:01 PM EDT
I like your hat idea. But would it be worn by an enchanter for that enchantment or the minion who benefits most from that enchantment?? If you can work out what i mean.
June 28 2005 9:06 PM EDT
While were at it, why not an EC blocking hat for non TOA tanks, and an AMF blocking hat for all the FB mages out there.
I do think with TOA's out there giving in some cases over 300k str/dex that EC is a rather weak spell in CB2. But make it more powerful and then non TOA tanks can be worthless. It would be TOA tank or bust.
Personally DM is a fine spell, and IMO balanced enough. It makes you not as dependant on enchantments for your HP/DX/STR. It stops people from using these enchantments to cheaply gain the basic stats.
Now there is a negative to the DM, Decay. Without decay in the game, I would say DM is very tough. But decay is the great equalizer. Now, you say decay has to wait till the first melee round to work. Perhaps it should cast in the last missile round to be fairer but thats can be debated. But right now decay is the way I can beat the FB/FF/DM characters that are over 100k less MPR then me. Its the way that Gyaxx can sometimes draw and beat me.
I do agree with the idea of stacking spells BEFORE DM is applied since DM's stack before its applied.
Just my random thoughts.
Chernobyl, Dispel Magic, unless I am mistaken, removes an exact amount of trained ED level every time--no matter what that ED is trained to--in much the same manner as EC removes an exact amount of trained ST/DX (also regardless of the amount of original ST/DX).
AMF changes it's effectiveness due to the level of DD spell it is affecting. Also, even though AMF can severely cripple a low-level DD spell, it cannot be cast at 100%.
June 28 2005 10:55 PM EDT
Actually, you're right. The math on AMF is different from EC and DM.
I'm still of the opinion that DM isn't overpowered. It's tough to build DM to a respectable level, and one point of DM doesn't reduce one point of enemy ED. In other words, it takes a DM that is significantly higher than an enemy ED to fizzle it completely.
June 28 2005 11:07 PM EDT
AMF can be cast at 100% (1.00 on play-by-play) it takes a lot for it to get that high but it is possible
June 28 2005 11:11 PM EDT
The only reason that I'd say DM is overpowerd, is that while AMF and EC each either A:
Reduce 1-2 possible stats (The DD spell trained, or Dex and Str) or
B: Negate only a persons offensive capability (you can argue dex with EC, but when was the last time you saw dex used for just defense?)
DM negates the offensive (GA, VA) and defensive (All) characteristics in up to 8 instances (EO and ED on 8 minions.) That's a WIDE spell. And the damage it does should be scaled down to consider that fact. If enchantments were rarer (and maybe that's what Jon was trying to accomplish, if so leave it be) then I would say small use = large effect. But on the contrary, most teams have at least one enchantment. Even my single tank has 2 (although I don't worry about DM much, VA is fine to lose and unaffected by amf.).
"Dispel magic has the ability to fizzle ED spells completely"
I agree with that. I don't say it's overpowered, I just think it has too many targets that can be weaken or fizzle.
Here is an example of DM vs. GA and AS
DM level = 30 k
AS level = 20 k
GA level = 25 k
Pick a calculation between:
[A]. AS fizzles (20k-30k make minus result) and GA also fizzles (also get minus)
[B]. DM level for each ED = 30k / 2 = 15k, then AS final level will be 20k - 15k = 5k and GA will be 25k - 15k = 10k.
I don't know which one is correct for now, (maybe none of above) but for [B], DM is not overpowered.
In [B], if there are 4 ED spells (in enemy side), DM will have 1/4 effect of its level to each ED spell. If this is not applied yet, so it's my suggestion how it should work.
DM is not overpowered if enemy's ED is concentrated and powerful enough, or can be useless if there are no ED on enemy side or even a suicide if it's accompanied with AMF/EC in the same character. So "Choose your weapons wisely" (quoted from chernobyl) is my current stand.
June 29 2005 3:17 AM EDT
A is correct Adrian.
Although in CB there are few "negative results." It just get nerfed to zero.
A way to limit the effectiveness of DM would be to have it work from the total level of any stacked ED's, instead of the individual level of each.
If you have a 50K DM and face two 30K AS, both fizzle. Shouldn't DM work off of the total 60K AS, leaving 10K AS?
June 29 2005 4:04 AM EDT
Also look at the Popularity of DM; it is only 4.1% while AMF is 13.2% and EC is 19.2%
Personally, I feel enough have been done to DM, so stop complaining just because you do not know how to play a game.
You know I really do not think you are try to helping CB2, if was not because people like you there would NOT even be a change NW link to PR, or CoBF deletion, or even those change in Tattoos. In addition, the economy will not be as bad as it is now.
So, for cry out loud, and for the good of CB2, be quit and play the game like an adult gamer.
June 29 2005 4:07 AM EDT
someone trains 1/4 of their total xp into DM.
their opponent of equal MPR has close to 100% of their xp into ED spread around 4 minions.
Is is unbalanced that that DM should have such a large effect on that opponent?
Not at all.
rock, paper, scissors.
June 29 2005 4:08 AM EDT
totally agreed. good point about the stacking and order that it works. DM has the ability to wipe out too many things for just one spell, compared to any other magic, it's just too powerful. (..and yes i use it on a farm)
If not changed, i think DM warrants it's own item like someone suggested, a DM reducing shield perhaps to fill that power shield category.
June 29 2005 4:09 AM EDT
Again, this is CB2 not rock, paper, scissors,
If you want play rock, paper, scissors then go play rock, paper, scissors!
Stop messing our CB2.
June 29 2005 4:33 AM EDT
Something should be changed about DM anyway: DM from different minions should not stack.
From spells and skills description: DM "Weakens all enchantments cast on targets". All enchantments is in fact all enchantments (including your other minion's AMF and EC) except DM. There is no reason for this. When a DM is cast, if another minion casts DM, it should be affected by the first DM, like any other spell would. Don't you think?
Or change that spell description...
Who was your first post aimed at Icewindvz?
Icewindvz, I'm pretty sure that Maulaxe's paper-rock-scissor coment did nothing but support your previous rant.
Have you tried making a char with minimal and or no ED. That was my solution and it works wonders against huge DM. They blast away my smallish GA and VA; then I just smile and keep coming.
me>big DM>ED group>me
Though it should be stated that I'm not doing all that terribly against ED teams either, because most of those are mage heavy ;p
Actually, Starseed^Lure, I have. Because DM is so overpowered, I have a very "hands-off" approach to ED spells. So my main character, The Last Samurai, is I working 4 minion strat that doesn't use them at all.
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