Forum Contest: FB down, Melee up (in General)

[T]Vestax July 9 2005 12:27 PM EDT

Alright, I know this ought to be in the contest forum, but I decided to post here instead so that I could pay heavy fines by the admins. Anyhow let's get to the rules of the contest:

This is how it goes. I'm going to suggest an idea, which of course has already been talked about but I'll act like it's band new. The game will then split into two major rounds.

Round one will start with a few on-topic comments which has been said before over and over again by the usual suspects. Then finally someone will have something new to say, which will make people say "oh, never thought of it that way." After this we kick-off round two.

Round two will then proceed in one of two directions.

The first direction is that this new perspective will be ignored by the general public and people will just start replying instinctively without reading anything and it ends up being a long list of bickering, complaining, and flaming from there on into infinity, with the occasional request to stay on-topic.

The second possible direction is that this perspective will not be ignored and people will comment on it's relevance for several posts up until the that ground braking reply gets buried. Then people will just start replying instinctively without reading anything and it ends up being a long list of bickering, complaining, and flaming from there on into infinity, with the occasional request to stay on-topic.

The last person to post will receive a goat from me via /me-mail in chat. The person to make the ground breaking reply wins a complete loss in faith that the world will ever be a better place.

Now that we are clear on the rules, lets get onto the topic for today:

In my opinion a few things need to be fixed. A point has been made that ranged combat now belongs only to the FB mages and FF thanks to the bow nerf. In order to make melee combat a true possibility I think we need to adjust FB just a bit. On top of this I have also noticed a complete lack of the single minion MM mage strat. I'm even starting to wonder if their exists one past 100k PR.

This is what I say we do. How about we make it so that FB fires twice in ranged combat and MM fires three times. Then, just to keep things fair, FB damage in melee could be reduced a bit for your own minions. I mean the mage can aim just a bit, can't he? Then of course this might have to be followed by a ToBF boost in backlash damage, but that was a given. This is what I think needs to be done for the sake of balance. But hey, what do I know?

Now let the contest begin!

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 9 2005 12:31 PM EDT

I don't not think this contest is too complicated.

I personally think Jon must have balanced it somewhere, but everyone missed keep looking maybe if you train nothing but HP and AMF.

Jason Bourne July 9 2005 12:51 PM EDT

Sasuke's familiar's Fireball hit Technodrome [42203],
Technodrome's familiar [46417],
Krang [44002]
Sasuke's Fireball hit Technodrome [32619],
Technodrome's familiar [43459],
Krang [39824]

Sasuke's familiar's Fireball hit Technodrome [58932],
Technodrome's familiar [50859],
Krang [48228]Sasuke's Fireball hit Technodrome [47935],
Krang [49598]
Sasuke cries "Katon! Goukakyuu no Jutsu!"
R.I.P. Sasuke's familiar

Sasuke's Fireball hit Krang [176319]
Sasuke cries "Katon! Goukakyuu no Jutsu!"

could everyone just drop it? my ranged damage is no greater than rangers, no greater than anyone with a decent bow actually. notice hos i start the round off doing 40k damage to everyone! did you notice that?!?! up here, 40k is like 1/8th of the hp people have. so you are not going to die in one round. and you know what? i usually do even less, its usually around 33k per minion. ranger still hits me 3 times a round in ranged, for 100-150k a shot. i take anywhere from 300-400k damage from him PER round. in the example above, i do 300k, total. my fb and my familiars FB. i have 2 damage dealing minions!!!! im meant to deal damage, spread out.
in the third round of ranged, i only do 170k damage. thats the equivalent of ONE of rangers 3 shots in ranged.

so stop screaming "Wheres the balance?!" and look for it. its right under your freaken noses. every strat in this game has a major weakness. ranger only kills one minion per round. mine is even more obvious. anyone ever heard of SEEKERS and AMF? stop whining and learn to use both of those. sure its only mpr and pr you say, its not fair to those people that have sunk their money in to have the top challenged by someone who just uses a trained skill

im crying for you. did you know that FB can never be on top? look at ranger. hes pretty well balanced. so well balanced in fact, that NO ONE can beat him. none of his weakness are great enough that he gives up the number 2 spot. i CAN NEVER be number 1 with a fireball, no matter how hard i try. there will always be teams like bast, and chet who tear my FB to shreds and then pound me to death.

do you know how much damage i do to chet in melee? 4k, tops. yea thats right, my "overpowered" 480k FB does 4,000 damage IN MELEE!

so stop whining, if FB is your weakness, thats YOUR problem. fix it, but stop pointing your finger at the FB mages up top, who are roasting away at people who refuse to use their brain. we cant make the top, but its easy to get close farming people who dont understand that.

QBRanger July 9 2005 12:55 PM EDT

Here is the reply to SC's post.

I have a 35 million ELB. It adds over 100k to my PR so my rewards go way down. A high end FB takes no additional PR.

That is the inequality.

Now, with the archery nerf, in addition to having a massive elb, I need to now have a massive MH which adds yet another 100k to my PR. So my weapons add over 200k to my PR while your fireball adds what-0.

[EG] Almuric July 9 2005 12:57 PM EDT

Somebody send me a CM when it's time for me to call people whiners.


QBBast [Hidden Agenda] July 9 2005 12:59 PM EDT

You could do it preemptively now, Al, you know the likely suspects. ;)

Jason Bourne July 9 2005 1:05 PM EDT

ranger, thats the penalty to stay on top.

dont you understand that i could never make it to the top? it doesnt matter how big a FB i have, how much damage they do, i will NEVER make number one with FB. just like in CB1, eventually net worth will finally win out, and DD spells will become near worthless.

by using a FB, im basically giving up the top. say i beat you, i cant beat gyaxx or anyone else in the top 10 who use seekers. so then you would pick em up. id never win. i will never be able to beat someone who uses seekers and amf.

bast doesnt even use seekers, and last time i checked, chet was beating me without using a bow.

i dont see chet and bast complaining about an overpowered DD spell >.>

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 9 2005 1:05 PM EDT

Ranger - So the reason FB is overpowered is because your NW is tied to your PR?

That sounds like salty nuts to me...However, I can't dissagree entirely, except
with your point about how much PR his FB costs him, granted you have STR/DEX and a ToA adding to your "trained" PR, but any big FB takes at least as much trained PR. Yes it is a little hard to figure how there is balance, but as I said before, I'm sure Jon has hidden it somewhere...maybe if we all look real hard, and train off skills...

QBRanger July 9 2005 1:15 PM EDT


Please do not put words in my mouth.

Im saying for a tank to be successful, s/he needs a certain amount of NW to do it.

SC was complaining that I do as much damage per shot then he does with FB.

I was pointing out that in order for me to do that much damage my PR will be at least 200k higher than his. With the latest archery nerf, in order to get more melee combats, I need now to have a nice NW weapon to do damage in melee.

Yes, I agree a FB mage will never be number 1. But a FB mage is quite cheap to run, esp with a FF and DM. Whats to stop a FB mage, once they catch me to convert to a tank.

I have been checking the MPR's of the FB mages compared to me the past few weeks and guess what, they are growing far faster than me. I think the fact that the FB/FF/DM combo is very powerful is making that possible.

No "salty nuts" here. If I wanted, I can convert my TOA to a FF, make my tank a FF mage and join the party. But... I like playing a tank type character.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 9 2005 1:26 PM EDT

sorry ranger, honestly I was just stuck on uber-rant.

The minion type tats should add pr equivalent to the pr of a minion with the same XP trained. If the current NW to PR setup doesn't do this (which from all I can tell it doesn't) it's broken. On the other hand, it's highly likely that Jon is just so much better at setting up chars than all of us, that his premade minion tats are unbeatable, and should be used exclusively for damage doing, cause that seems to be where we are heading. Granted I see more and more high MPR chars that wipe the floor with the hoards of weak tanks and diluted mage teams, but not so many that can take on a 30k(pr) adding minion tat combined with a trivial char. Tats are little concentrated bits of XP trained by the Man, maybe we all just suck at his game.

[T]Vestax July 9 2005 1:48 PM EDT

I just want to point out that I was merely moving a topic from change log. I mostly want to here about the single minion MM mage personally. If everything is so balanced then why is it I notice every sort of damage dealer in a single minion team EXCEPT MM. I see UC tanks, BL tanks, archers, so-bad-I-don't-know-what-they-are tanks, FB mages, CoC mages, heck I've even run into just plain GA enchanters. But when it comes to 100k PR and above, I never see MM just by itself.

btw the contest is going just great, keep it up guys. :)

QBRanger July 9 2005 1:50 PM EDT


Check out The First.

QBRanger July 9 2005 1:51 PM EDT

He is not single minion but he uses MM exclusively.

QBsutekh137 July 9 2005 1:55 PM EDT

No, I am not complaining.

However, my team is constructed with mage-stopping in mind. Cougars cannot really be used as a "See how easy it is to stop FB/FF/DM?" example in my opinion.

Bartlett, on the other hand, is simply a well-rounded, massive-PR team with NW invested in the right spots. Bast is a good example of "doing most everything right", including money management and savvy clan maneuvers.

[T]Vestax July 9 2005 2:52 PM EDT

Thanks for giving me something to point at Ranger. I'll use it to make my point even though it's not a single minion team. It's rather a clear example that even with a four minion team and some diversity, MM can't carry you along all by it's own very far. The First's has a score below his PR and has a lot more MPR then everyone around him as well. Actually he has a huge amount of MPR in comparison. And MPR is what drives the spell damage, so it's clear that his NW isn't failing him, it's his MM. Tell me a team with as much MPR and NW couldn't be doing better with FB or CoC cause I currently don't believe it.

Frankly, I care most at this point about the balance between the DD spells more then I do about the their power in comparison to tanks and NW. Balance them out and then for all I care you can increase the damage of all DD by 200%. Simply put, any way you slice it the mage stopping power of seekers and AMF stops ALL mages regardless of what they use. So if their all the same on defense, they might as well all be balanced on the offense.

maulaxe July 9 2005 2:57 PM EDT

i think the rules for this contest are like a vaccum cleaner that feeds on intelligence. NooooooooooOOOoooo0000!!!!!!!!11 I wonzorz!!!! mY FB p0nz jOo a77!

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 9 2005 3:00 PM EDT

*laughs to death*

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] July 9 2005 3:06 PM EDT

Well GPV just so you know I have a MM single Mage with a lesser fire familiar to help me out. Jessica Alba 295,924 / 120,191 / 92,131 This may not be exactly what you were talking about but its pretty close. I use the fire familiar in combination with DM to knock out most AS strats, then take out the low HP mages with the familiars FB while I fight the tanks with my MM. I have no idea if this has to do with anything but ohh well.

[T]Vestax July 9 2005 3:06 PM EDT

My grammar makes me want to hang myself. =P

[T]Vestax July 9 2005 3:16 PM EDT

That's actually really nice Draco and your strat uses the one strength MM has to it's maximum advantage I would say. I just wonder how well a similar team could do if that Fire Familiar was a Steal Familiar instead. Truth is that half your team is the FB/DM combo, which we have already established is very successful. But I don't think I'll be happy until I see MM stand on it's own.

QBsutekh137 July 9 2005 4:06 PM EDT

Maybe that's the point, though. MM is NOT meant to stand on it's own. It is well-rounded, doesn't splash, and cannot be stopped by a TBF. BUT, it lacks Round One and can only kill one minion at a time (that is why The First has multiples).

FB works better solo because of the quick kills and because a solo minion does not have to worry about splash.

Just some food for thought.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] July 9 2005 4:34 PM EDT

Very good points Chet and thats about why use my strat the way I do. FB isn't concentrated enough to kill the tanks until everyone else is dead. The MM helps to take out those pesky tanks that will kill me in 3 rounds. I just have to tank the first 2 shots from ranged tanks then I can take them out.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 9 2005 4:55 PM EDT

Heh, not surprising I'ld post... ;)

Ranged rules melee because of the turn based system. For this to be anywhere near balanced, *all* ranged damage needs to do less than melee (without BL included..).

Archery has been toned down, which was needed. Why have melee at all when ranged is *so* much better.

Now that leaves mages.

Only two attacks fire in Ranged, FB and MM. *Both* do too much damage. FB just get's silly when paired with DM. MM doesn't have the same "oomph" when paired with DM. Check out my many posts on the subject.

I propose a different 'fix' to GPV.

Increase the ranged penalty for DD spells.

This attempts to balanced ranged versus melee, without sacrificing DD spells powers too much, and still leaving an alternative to just training CoC.

With this in mind, CoC damage in melee should be lowered, and the 5 minion target property should be expanded. FB damage should be upped, but be able to do damage to *all* friendly minions when two 5 minion teams fight. And maybe even to the caster...

MM, steady single target damage.
FB, powerful, does some damage in ranged, can take out 20 hp enchanter when paired with DM, does loads of damage in melee, but is destructive to your team as well (possibly why it should also do damage to the caster..)
CoC, a powerful multi minion attack that doesn't hit your team.
Decay, stays as is.


Choice and strategy in one fell swoop!

[T]Vestax July 9 2005 5:30 PM EDT

Your just trying your best to get round two started aren't you GL.

QBsutekh137 July 9 2005 5:53 PM EDT

I will ignore GL's post if that helps get Round Two started?

(Just kidding, GL. An interesting perspective as per usual...)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 9 2005 6:03 PM EDT

I have no faith, I just want that goat!

I better be the last post!

Undertow July 9 2005 6:37 PM EDT

I think the last person should get an amount of goat meat equal to a whole goat divided by the number of replies.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 9 2005 6:42 PM EDT

But then I wouldn't get a goat to eat all my grass, and save me having to go out tomorrow and cut it. :'(

maulaxe July 10 2005 12:42 AM EDT

goats smell.

they also eat things that you don't want them to - like all of those rares you have sitting around. mmmmm yummy elven fabric on that cloak, and crunchy tattoos lying around! (how DO you store tattoos when they aren't on anyone????)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 10 2005 2:33 AM EDT

Dudes you suck!

I win!
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001PuY">Forum Contest: FB down, Melee up</a>