Been trying to put this into words for a long time (in General)

My brain is working again!

If the skill/spell power gained from an additional + on an item is less than the skill/spell power gained from upping a skill (or spell) the same pr amount using EXP, then you should up the item, and not buy BA.

If, however, you'd gain more spell power from upping the skill the PR amount, you should spend your money on BA, to keep the NW/MPR balance.

YAY!

"you'd gain more spell power from upping the skill the PR amount" using EXP, duh.

The bigger question is determining that tradeoff. At lower item + levels the cost is minimal, so it's more likely worth the NW tradeoff, especially if it's for a specific minion (think corn on the enchanter or HoE on the tank) that focuses on that statistic. But I've stopped adding to my gear because the costs for the next plus are high (100k+ for most of my gear on Murcielago), and the EXP benefits all minions and therefore all aspects of my strategy.

If at first you don't succeed, try and try and try again.

Care to give it another shot Undertow?

No, I still think I'm right.

Under your example, even if your trying to enhance a single minion, I believe it's still cheaper in both $ and PR to buy ba, and use that EXP to up the spell in question.

If you use that money to up your minions spell buy upping your NW, your adding PR.

What I need to do is to adjust it for multiminion teams. I was thinking single minion when I was trying to grasp this.

If, PR gained from + = X, and you gain Y spell power, Z = number of minions, N=pr gained from training the spell (and all other mininos, potentially) the same amount:

IF, X/Y>(N*Z)/Y, you should make the upgrade, otherwise you should buy BA to earn the XP for the upgrade.

EXAMPLE:

If we have a 4 minion, evenly trained team. Say for simplicity AS/AS/FB/MM, old school farm.

We want to up the + on the FB minions CoI.

I have NO DATA on this, I'm throwing up some rough numbers, if someone will supply me with real data, it'll be easier to test this.

If, we say, that the pr gained from the + on the cloak is 25k. For that your upping the spell 1%, from 6% to 7%.

Now, you have your FB spell at spell level 200k. With the cloak, it ups it to 212k. With the new + it will become 214k for a gain of 2k. You have a 4 minion team.

2k/25k = .08

Now, let's say if we trained the spell 2k it would cost, I have NO idea, 50k EXP. And that 50k EXP and spell power added on to your character gives you 5k pr. BUT! That's 5k pr on each of your minions, for a total of 20k pr. Now, this only works if your minions are even. If they're off balance then the xp effects you differently for each minion.

So, (5k*4)/25k = a drastically different .71

So .08<.71, it would make much more sense to spend the money on the +.

Now, if I could get some real data, I could further test my formula. But the point is, that I'm closer to finding exactly where the $$$/XP threshold is.

I have duly dubbed Undertow among an elite few with the addition of the addition. Hopefully I will be able to bring what I mean to light soon, so that this post doesn't sound completely crazy.

Alright, I'm gonna try to boil this down a lot.

Okay, when you up an item it adds pr right?

And it adds spell power?

Well, when you train XP doesn't it do the exact same thing?

Some people no matter how much money they earn put all of thier money into thier items. Because that adds a + to your spells. Besides, where else are you gonna put the money?

You can buy BA. Buying ba, gives you XP and no money.

Wrong you say, when I buy ba I do get money. Well you shouldn't at least not enough to make a profit. But I break even? that's right, if you spend as much as you make, all you have left is XP, pure XP. Can't buy XP? Wrong.

But I actually make a little money when I buy BA!

Not as much as you'd think, just trust me, this could get it's own post.

So, upping your items gives you pr, upping your spell/stats/skills gives you pr.

Both these things give you pr, and trust me, you don't want pr.

More pr means lower rewards. If you could up your item for X pr, and you could up your XP for X pr, and have the same effect, which would you choose. I'd choose the one that gives me less PR.

So, you figure out how much pr you'll get for upping an item. Then, how much spell power you'll get from upping the item.

If you can get that same amount of spell power, from XP, for less PR by buying your ba, that's what you should do.

It really boils down to what gives your more bang for your pr.

I agree with you on this - in the shorter term. A 10% gain on a DD spell when said spell is at 80k for instance doesn't make a whole lot of difference. At that level you would gain far more by buying ba and plowing it into the spell. But when your DD spell is in the higher levels that 10% is going to be worth a whole lot more. Even before the NW/PR link it wasn't always worth adding that extra + to a weapon or investing in armour until you were at a higher level. Once the numbers - levels of spells/damage etc - start getting bigger then NW starts to count far more.


Not sure my brain is working either so I hope you get what I mean...

Another small point about adding a + to an item that gives a bonus: in the shorter term it doesn't make much difference so yes why should you do it if you can get more xp at that point. But that bonus grows with your pr for no additional cost. So for one single investment in a plus you do actually get free 'XP' later on. I guess it depends on whether or not you're thinking in the longer term and how many people in CB actually do that?

ah, but we're not argueing at this for a whole item. Just adding a single plus at a time.

Quite simply, if you can gain X in a spell by gaining 5k pr by adding a plus to your item or 3k pr by adding expierance to your minion, why would you add a plus?

If you do, your pr is higher, and your earning lower rewards, which in the long run is NOT free XP, but quite the oppisite, wasted potential growth.

I think there are characters that have a lot to gain by adding items and rares. If they want to boost they're spell 10%, and a CoI is cheaper in PR than the XP to do it, go get yourself a CoI.

In fact, I'd say forge to get that CoI, because any XP you add to your character is just more NW you'll need to close the gap later.

There is a balance, where your characters MPR and PR gained through NW are in perfect harmony, where you strike the perfect balance for maximum rewards and growth. I will find the razor's edge.

but don't u gain AC?

The 10 or so AC you get from a Corn or CoI is pretty much negligable.

When I first read this thread title, I thought Undertow was going to tell us he loves us. Tow, you big teddy bear :)

On the surface, Undertow's argument makes sense. It's also almost completely wrong. Sorry, Under.

You should ALWAYS buy BA if you have the money. If you miss the opportunity to buy that day's BA, you will never get it back. You can always buy NW later on. Lost BA can't be regained.

At the beginning, you should spend a little bit of money on equipment - and for certain, you should acquire a tattoo - it will grow with you. But once you have the basic equipment, always buy BA. That's why many people choose a low-NW-necessary strat.

"You can always buy NW later on."

I ran an EEMM setup right off the beginning, buying every single BA I could, and I never had a spare dime. When, praytel, should I ever buy equipment then?

The only thing I can figure out is that maybe you mean with USD.

Lots of ways to make money:

Go into the store and find a nice piece of equipment. That's how I got my DBs.

Win somebody's contest.

Refer people.

If you help people enough, eventually someone will reward you with stuff, either by giving you something they don't need or selling you something for cheap.

Play CB1 and sell for CB2.

Sell things in other games for CB2.

Trade for something like Magic cards, or Playstation games or something.

I'm sure there's half-a-dozen other ways to make $ in this game without fighting. (I specifically left out forging and camping, since those would inhibit MPR growth.)

Oh, okay, I see what your saying.

Well, I try to keep CB a bubble. I've brokerd a few out of game trades in the past. But I really don't want to sell r/l stuff for CB $$. And I could go down the list of why your other ideas don't work for me.

Camping has come to mind before, but again, MPR growth.

Good point though.